Let's discuss the Confederate Flag.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:00 pm
Beelzebub wrote:Ok. That makes perfect sense. The evil white illuminati has infiltrated my subconscious and forced me to think ideas that oppress black people are good. That's totally not insane and ridiculous at all. You're talking out your ass. Academia nowadays is all about diversity and inclusiveness.


Academia nowadays would also tell you that our entire method of determining quality and merit has been skewed by centuries of white men deciding which ideas have merit and which don't. It's how our laws are written. It's how our Constitution was written. It's not an Illuminati thing. It's how you were raised. It's what the whole of a society that was originally built to serve the needs of white men has taught us.

So because I brought up a fact that makes you uncomfortable, I'm automaically "defending" slavery. Maybe try thinking a little harder. The whole point is people view the confederate flag as symbolizing the souths culture. The point is relevant because the souths reason for having slaves had very little do to with their culture, so they're not acually celebrating slavery.


You're defending slavery because you're trying to justify why the South had slaves. It doesn't matter why. They had slaves, and they fought a war to keep them, and the flag represents that fight.

...except I just said that the debate of fedaralism and anti federalism had been around since the revolutionary war. Just because slavery tied into doesn't mean it encompassed all of it. Slavery was one of the main things that spurred it, but what the south was fighting for extended beyond just wanting the right to own slaves.


That's Lost Cause bullshit made up during reconstruction to make the South look better.

Nah, I'm pretty sure Kanye understands a lot better than you. He seems to understands that symbols aren't inherently evil and that taking the flag for himself is a great way to say "fuck you" to white nationalists.


Here's the thing though: The white southerners aren't saying 'fuck you' to white nationalists, they're helping them. They're allowing the symbol that white racists have used for decades become a cornerstone of southern culture by choosing to ignore everything wrong with it. What they're doing isn't re-appropriation, and even if it was they, as white southerners, have no place to do so.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:15 am
Spoiler
someperson wrote:Academia nowadays would also tell you that our entire method of determining quality and merit has been skewed by centuries of white men deciding which ideas have merit and which don't.

True. There are things that acadamia pushes nowadays that are bullshit, but let's not get even more sidetracked.

It's how our laws are written.

Really? Show me a law today that is inherently biased towards "white men" and unfair towards woman or minorities. Actually don't bother, because you won't be able to.

It's how our Constitution was written.

Originally I think it talked about slaves, but it's been amended since then.

It's not an Illuminati thing.

It's on that level.

It's how you were raised.

You don't know how I was raised.

It's what the whole of a society that was originally built to serve the needs of white men has taught us.

Yes. Originally. Believe it or not we've progressed since then. There are actually certain areas where woman and minorities have distinct advantages now. There is no white mafia out to oppress all none whites and raise white males above everyone else, as much as SJW's wish there were.

You're defending slavery because you're trying to justify why the South had slaves.

Please learn what "justify" means. Because that doesn't apply to what I'm doing. I'm not trying to paint the institution of slavery as anything less than abominable. I'm just saying that it's important to recognize the reason for why there was slavery, and that it actually didn't have very much to do with southern culture, which is the whole thing that the people supporting the confederate flag claiming it should symbolize.

That's Lost Cause

No it is not.


Here's the thing though:

Translation: let me backpedal a bit

The white southerners aren't saying 'fuck you' to white nationalists

[citation needed]

They're allowing the symbol that white racists have used for decades become a cornerstone of southern culture by choosing to ignore everything wrong with it.

Who says they're ignoring? Changing =/= ignoring. There's nothing "wrong" with the flag itself, just the racist assholes who have flown it in the past and present.

What they're doing isn't re-appropriation

Because you say so?

as white southerners, have no place to do so.

And that's bullshit for reasons I've already gone over.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:15 am
Look at Fire trying to bring us to the main topic there C: (I agree with the bolded stuff).

@Beelze: (also, sorry, skimming over stuff not directly addressed to me because I'm trying to save time).

Fancy wigs stuff:
Spoiler
I’m not really sure what your criteria is for determining that slavery was more “meaningful” to the confederacy than it was to America as a whole before slavery was abolished in the north. Slavery is a horrid crime regardless of how “meaningful” the people benefiting from it consider it.

“fancy wigs”
See above. There’s nothing inherently objectionable about wearing fancy wigs. I don’t see what difference it really makes. If some outside force had come and tried to get rid of slavery, the early united states probably would have fought for it as well.

I must have expressed myself horribly wrong because I don't think you understood what I was trying to say xD. When I said something about "meaningful" it was in the sense that I think there is an "important" (to use another word) difference between how slavery can be associated to the US flag and how it is with the Confederacy and its flag. The first is merely out of incidental context, is it not? (Like, I'm pretty sure you don't normally associate it with slavery save for the sake of argument like here right now) I wasn't saying that fancy wigs are objectionable, I was saying they were just part of the context of that time, so you could associate fancy wigs (much like any other meme of that time) to the US flag and imo that association would be of the same level as the slavery-US-flag association. Meanwhile the fight for the rights to own slaves wasn't just a bystander on the context of the Confedercy and its flag, it was something they were aiming for, a core tenet of sorts, as well as a really important part of what the flag meant to represent.

Hypothetical "external force" scenario:
Spoiler
Whether the hypothetical of an "external force" and whatever the US as a whole would've done about that, I don't really care. This is still that whole "you too!"/"but they were (hypothetically) just as bad as the Confederacy" logic that doesn't make anything about the use of the Confederate flag any more valid =/. What did happen is that one group fought in no small part because they wanted to defend/forward the slaves system and it chose to create symbology to represent that fight.


About WW usage again:
Spoiler
I feel like its usage responded to taking pride on their origins (or in a sorta worse case, maybe to continue rebeling against the result of that past civil war). I wouldn't think it was meant specifically as an anti-nazi symbol or anything, and I don't even really think fighting nazism (for which there were many reasons more than just not liking white supremacism) and being a Confederacy sympathizer are mutually exclusive anyways. Eh, I think we both would be just assuming what people of the past were thinking here, so it doesn't seem all that productive to continue to discuss xP.


About these:
Yes, but the fact of the matter is that there culture did not revolve around it, and most people didn’t see slavery as this great thing. Most southerners at the time didn’t even own slaves. Given how many consider the rebel flag to symbolize their love of southern culture, it’s worth bringing up.

The whole point is people view the confederate flag as symbolizing the souths culture. The point is relevant because the souths reason for having slaves had very little do to with their culture, so they're not acually celebrating slavery

Spoiler
Hmm... I have some grips here but someperson sorta already addressed this anyways. I get you are not trying to defend slavery thou, but at the same time I do feel like you are downplaying its importance too, like, it's K if you find it's not what the South's culture was all about, but the Confederacy itself as a political group, as one side of that civil war, is a different beast and one that I think was very much about slavery.
   I mean, I get this:
a symbol that once stood for something heinous can't be taken and made to stand for something noble beyond "it's offensive." Like I said at the beginning of the thread, symbols don't actually possess any inherent meaning, a symbol itself isn't responsible for atrocities carried out under it

   But, aren't you like, arguing about what could happen or what can be done with symbology as a whole rather than what's actually going on with the confederate flag? I don't feel like this sentiment can be equated to what's happening with the Confederate flag, mostly because it doesn't feel to me that it's being reappropriated in that way or that it's not currently being used in a way still positively associated with the Confederacy. I think part of the problem is that being of the South and proud of it and being a Confederacy sympathizer are two different things, but flying a Confederate flag is a way to be (or at least, look like) the second, because that what's it's there for, to pay homage to the Confederacy.

   I don't think symbols necessarily have static meanings, and I get the "no inherent meaning" thing; that argument would probably be best to make if the point was that you want to fly it because "it's just a flag and I think it's cool looking". If the argument is about changing its meaning to something else then we have to recognize some symbols do have power and do have an agreed upon meaning, because otherwise the very excercise of trying to change its meaning is... well, meaningless and pointless, so why even do it.

   We as a society, for example, use a country's flag to pay homage to and honour that country and what it stands for. In spite of people flying it not being good-old-fashioned-confederacists, aren't they still paying homage and respects to the Confederacy by flying its flag? Why choose to associate with the Confederacy instead of moving on from it? Kanye West aside thou, because I don't think that represents the mindset of most people flying the flag and it's still kinda silly to me xP (if anything, what he did is a response to the fact that people still choose to fly the flag nowadays, and he is recognizing the meaning it has and directly tackling it... also I did say I thought it'd be more the place of the black community to reappropriate it, specially in that reversal-y kind of way ^^').


In the end, beyond (or rather, instead of) "southern culture", the Confederate flag still represents the Confederacy because that's what it's there for. I wouldn't say that southern culture is inevitably about wanting to own slaves, I would however say that's a core part of what the Confederacy was. So:
Could be that they’re just expressing the love of their culture. That doesn’t necessarily mean “ignoring” the fact that slavery was a part of it at one point any more than expressing admiration for the founding fathers isn’t “ignoring” the fact that they owned slaves.

When I say they're averting their eyes from (or ignoring) slavery, that bolded "it" I'm talking about is the Confederacy, not southern culture as a whole. I feel like that "yeah south!" deal still is invoking the Confederacy when you are expressing that with the Confederate flag (I mean, that's a pretty starightforward association), and that's when I think you start to, willingly and consciously or not, just sweeping the bad under the rug about the Confederacy, because you still honour them and end up (want it or not) trying to repaint what they represented.

Conclusion time, yay: Again, I don't think it should be banned. Brining it back to that question I underlined in the spoiler above: Even if these are things that can happen and you can do with symbols in a general sense, I don't think that's what's happening with the flag's use, it's still associated with the Confederacy; you might be able to change what the Confederacy is associated with via using its flag to paint it in a more positive light, but I feel like that would amount to sweeping the bad under the rug and that there's no point in doing something like that anyways. To put it in a consice way just for once: I find its continued use silly (like legit silly, not even an euphemism for worse words) and think it'd make more sense to move on from the Confederacy's symbology (the South doesn't need the Confederacy). That's all.
(whoa, this was a long one, really sorry about that).

Oh hey, you ninja'd me...
Last edited by Lyserg.Z on Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Beelzebub wrote:
Spoiler
someperson wrote:Academia nowadays would also tell you that our entire method of determining quality and merit has been skewed by centuries of white men deciding which ideas have merit and which don't.

True. There are things that acadamia pushes nowadays that are bullshit, but let's not get even more sidetracked.

It's how our laws are written.

Really? Show me a law today that is inherently biased towards "white men" and unfair towards woman or minorities. Actually don't bother, because you won't be able to.

It's how our Constitution was written.

Originally I think it talked about slaves, but it's been amended since then.

It's not an Illuminati thing.

It's on that level.

It's how you were raised.

You don't know how I was raised.

It's what the whole of a society that was originally built to serve the needs of white men has taught us.

Yes. Originally. Believe it or not we've progressed since then. There are actually certain areas where woman and minorities have distinct advantages now. There is no white mafia out to oppress all none whites and raise white males above everyone else, as much as SJW's wish there were.

You're defending slavery because you're trying to justify why the South had slaves.

Please learn what "justify" means. Because that doesn't apply to what I'm doing. I'm not trying to paint the institution of slavery as anything less than abominable. I'm just saying that it's important to recognize the reason for why there was slavery, and that it actually didn't have very much to do with southern culture, which is the whole thing that the people supporting the confederate flag claiming it should symbolize.

That's Lost Cause

No it is not.


Here's the thing though:

Translation: let me backpedal a bit

The white southerners aren't saying 'fuck you' to white nationalists

[citation needed]

They're allowing the symbol that white racists have used for decades become a cornerstone of southern culture by choosing to ignore everything wrong with it.

Who says they're ignoring? Changing =/= ignoring. There's nothing "wrong" with the flag itself, just the racist assholes who have flown it in the past and present.

What they're doing isn't re-appropriation

Because you say so?

as white southerners, have no place to do so.

And that's bullshit for reasons I've already gone over.



1. Possession crack cocaine carries with it a significantly higher penalty that cocaine does. The former is a drug primarily used in black communities, while the latter is primarily used by those with money (i.e white people). This is an example of a law being written to help preserve the white power structure. Another example is a recent rash of voter ID laws going through (where else) the south the made to combat a non-existent problem that has the added bonus of keeping lower class black voters from the polls. And that's just the shit that's overtly racist. Our constitution was written exclusively by white men, who had nobody but white men in mind. Our laws all have to follow the example of that constitution.

2. However much we think we've progressed since then, we were still taught by our ancestors, who were taught by their ancestors, who were taught by their ancestors, and so on. And to think nothing from their racist brains made it down to us, and infected our thoughts, and the way we judge people, ideas, etc. is ludicrous. In fact, the only real way we've progressed is by opening ourselves up and listening to what those who don't have power (women/minorities/LGBTQIA people) have to say about their experiences.

3. If slavery was so integral to the southern economy that they would fight a war to protect it, and those in the South who opposed slavery never did so to the extent that it the south could eliminate it on their own, then slavery must have been a big part of southern culture.

4. The racist assholes using it in the past and present have claimed it. In fact, it was always theirs, and because they will always exist, it will always be theirs. Just like how in the west, the swastika will always be a Nazi symbol.

5. I've lived most of my life in the south. I know what people down their are like. And I know what people are talking about when they say 'southern pride'. I know these people are antagonistic toward the North, specifically the northeast. I know many people from many generations that have antagonistic views toward black people. Shit, I've known places where they have segregated proms. You can say that things have changed, and they have because things are always changing. But so much of that racist culture still lingers, and these people who wave the Confederate flag are the people who resist change more than anyone else. They have no intention of changing the meaning. In fact, I've heard more arguments from them that it was never a racist symbol than I have that they want to change it from a racist symbol.

6. White people do not get to re-appropriate racist symbols because we are the ones who made them. Even if it's a different generation, it doesn't matter, because we are their descendants and we learned from them and inherited their privileges. It's the same reason we can't call people 'home skillet'.

There is no white mafia out to oppress all none whites and raise white males above everyone else, as much as SJW's wish there were.


1. And you think privilege is the dumb concept.

2. Never said anything like this. The people who introduced racism to this country are long since dead. What I'm saying is their influence still lingers in the culture, and we as a culture are still attempting to get over it. It is a very slow process, and the continued exaltation of the Confederacy and the Confederate flag is a hindrance of that process.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:44 pm
Darkseid wrote:
Ehsan wrote:
Darkseid wrote:Gee, it's like this guy is racist or something and has no idea how to prove he's not racist without admitting he's wrong about the flag held up to protect slavery.

Knock if off, Dark. This is getting old.

I may be a tad out of line, but that would mean this guy is on the freaking moon.

Come on, it's really obvious he's a racist, and I'm kind of shocked he's not banned just based on everything he's said in this thread yet (I suppose it's because he hasn't admitted anything while also sincerely defending the Confederacy's right to CONDUCT SLAVERY, which is really a big red flag that should instantly have him banned, but he's not saying he's racist so no go I guess).

No Dark, it is not in your jurisdiction to call whether someone gets banned. And it's especially not fine to act condescending and calling people racists in a thread. Granted I really don't agree with the person at hand, it does not dictate or go to people making fun of anyone and it's really getting tiring where you find it fine to act condescending or call names if someone disagrees with you.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:55 pm
@someperson
Spoiler
Possession crack cocaine carries with it a significantly higher penalty that cocaine does. The former is a drug primarily used in black communities, while the latter is primarily used by those with money (i.e white people). This is an example of a law being written to help preserve the white power structure.

Do you not know what "inherently" means? That's a bias against the poor, not against black people. Just because many black people happen to live in poverty doesn't make the law inherently racist. And I'm pretty sure the reason for that disparity in the first place is because usage of Crack Cocaine became such a widespread epidemic that it was an attempt to crack down on its usage.

Another example is a recent rash of voter ID laws going through (where else) the south the made to combat a non-existent problem that has the added bonus of keeping lower class black voters from the polls.

As far as I know those also affect the elderly and the poor in general. So again, not specifically designed to "help the white man."

However much we think we've progressed since then, we were still taught by our ancestors, who were taught by their ancestors, who were taught by their ancestors, and so on. And to think nothing from their racist brains made it down to us, and infected our thoughts, and the way we judge people, ideas, etc. is ludicrous. In fact, the only real way we've progressed is by opening ourselves up and listening to what those who don't have power (women/minorities/LGBTQIA people) have to say about their experiences.

And we are also not our ancestors, and most of us are capable of independent critical thought, at least I hope most of us are. What you're saying is probably true on some small level for some people, but to jump the conclusion that it has subconsciously warped all of our thinking into being biased towards "white men" on any significant level is absurd and you have no good evidence to back it up.

Considering other points of view is important, obviously. However, it's not as simple as "he's black," "she's a woman" etc. Everyone is an individual. "White people" and "Black people" are not a hivemind. Like the fact that you said that you'll give Kanye West "leeway" when talking about the Confederate flag is completely laughable given that Kanye West has way more money and power than the vast majority of white men. Now obviously him being black helps since a white guy doing the same thing would immediately be branded as a racist, but that's just due to the hyper political correctness that people are all about nowadays.

If slavery was so integral to the southern economy that they would fight a war to protect it, and those in the South who opposed slavery never did so to the extent that it the south could eliminate it on their own, then slavery must have been a big part of southern culture.

Did you miss what Justicar said in his video? A lot of them had a misguided religious notion that somehow God would abolish slavery when the time was right. Of course that's terrible in it's own way, but the point I'm trying to make is that most weren't actually cool with slavery and saw it as a moral evil. Is that so hard to understand? Also your point is a total non sequitur. I've already explained why fighting for the right to own slaves doesn't necessarily make it a part of your culture, and the fact that there was actually a lot of anti slave sentiment in the south.

At the very least, I hope you can understand that I am not "defending" the institution of slavery any more than you are. You at least seem more sane than Darkseid, so I hope that much gets through.

The racist assholes using it in the past and present have claimed it. In fact, it was always theirs, and because they will always exist, it will always be theirs. Just like how in the west, the swastika will always be a Nazi symbol.

Yeah, and we can claim it back, and use their own symbol against them. Literally the only argument you have against this is "it hurts peoples feewings!"

-snip-

So racist culture exists(something I already knew) and speculation based on anecdotal evidence. Like I said, citation needed.

White people do not get to re-appropriate racist symbols because we are the ones who made them. Even if it's a different generation, it doesn't matter, because we are their descendants and we learned from them and inherited their privileges. It's the same reason we can't call people 'home skillet'.

Elaborating on your point doesn't make it any less wrong.

And you think privilege is the dumb concept.

The way SJW's tout it, it very much is. And SJW is not a "concept." They're a very real group of people who'd rather blame society for their failures rather than attempt to take any sort of personal responsibility.


@Lyserg.Z
Spoiler
Again, I don't really think that changes anything. The fact that the relationship that slavery had with the US flag is "incidental" doesn't make it any less bad. The flag was flown by people who thought white people are inherently superior and that slavery was okay. That's what matters. "What it was meant to represent," is incredibly subjective.

Whether the hypothetical of an "external force" and whatever the US as a whole would've done about that, I don't really care. This is still that whole "you too!"/"but they were (hypothetically) just as bad as the Confederacy" logic that doesn't make anything about the use of the Confederate flag any more valid =/. What did happen is that one group fought in no small part because they wanted to defend/forward the slaves system and it chose to create symbology to represent that fight.

It is valid. Your whole reason for being against the appropriation of the confederate flag is because racism is somehow "foundational" to it. I question the logic that because the people the flag represented at the time were fighting for(among other things) the institution of slavery is somehow worse than a flag that represented a group of people who also owned slaves and weren't any less racist, but somehow because they weren't actively fighting for the institution that makes the flag less offensive? Sorry if I'm just reiterating my point but I'm really not getting your argument here.

As for the ww2 stuff, I guess I see your point, but at the same time I feel like you're grasping at straws just to avoid having to admit that the confederate flag has some positive history behind it.

I get you are not trying to defend slavery

Well that's good, you're definitely more reasonable than the others, and I've enjoyed this exchange. Though I don't see what could really even lead one to consider that beyond a knee jerk "HE DOESN'T AGREE WITH ME SO HE'S RACIST" response.

itself as a political group, as one side of that civil war, is a different beast and one that I think was very much about slavery.

And the Rebel Flag doesn't have to represent the entirety of the confederacy, just like the American Flag doesn't have to represent all the horrible shit the United States has done. The Civil War as a conflict was heavily tied to slavery, but I don't think the southern people and by extension very much was, at least not much more than the north was(now that I think of it, there were actually states in the union during the Civil War that had slaves, like Delaware and Washington.)

But, aren't you like, arguing about what could happen or what can be done with symbology as a whole rather than what's actually going on with the confederate flag?

Truth be told I'm not exactly sure what is going on and how many people are actually seeking to re-appropriate in the way I describe compared to people who use it as a white supremacist symbol. I don't think anyone really does. As was mentioned before, polls can only do so much.

If the argument is about changing its meaning to something else then we have to recognize some symbols do have power and do have an agreed upon meaning, because otherwise the very excercise of trying to change its meaning is... well, meaningless and pointless, so why even do it.

It's about changing perception. If you can change the popular perception of a symbol, than you've effectively "changed" it's meaning.

Why choose to associate with the Confederacy instead of moving on from it?

1. Because people view the Rebel Flag symbolizing the south as a whole and a symbol of resisting tyranny(even though the reasons for doing so during the civil war was wrong and misguided.) I don't think the Confederacy was much more racist than the early united states, or even the Union for that matter, for reasons I've already explained.

2. Like I said before, the best way to fight symbolism is with symbolism. If you completely demonize the flag, then all you're going to do is make more racists rally around it. I don't think creating black and white(heh) dichotomies with something like a flag will lead to any good. Kanye West may be silly regarding a lot of things, but I'm totally on board with him taking a symbol widely known to symbolize hate and using it as a big middle finger to the bigots who fly it.

I think I've pretty much addressed the rest.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:55 pm
someperson wrote:
Beelzebub wrote:Ok. That makes perfect sense. The evil white illuminati has infiltrated my subconscious and forced me to think ideas that oppress black people are good. That's totally not insane and ridiculous at all. You're talking out your ass. Academia nowadays is all about diversity and inclusiveness.


Academia nowadays would also tell you that our entire method of determining quality and merit has been skewed by centuries of white men deciding which ideas have merit and which don't. It's how our laws are written. It's how our Constitution was written. It's not an Illuminati thing. It's how you were raised. It's what the whole of a society that was originally built to serve the needs of white men has taught us.



Both of these statements are incredibly incorrect regarding academia.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:13 pm
Fredo_Corleone wrote:
someperson wrote:
Beelzebub wrote:Ok. That makes perfect sense. The evil white illuminati has infiltrated my subconscious and forced me to think ideas that oppress black people are good. That's totally not insane and ridiculous at all. You're talking out your ass. Academia nowadays is all about diversity and inclusiveness.


Academia nowadays would also tell you that our entire method of determining quality and merit has been skewed by centuries of white men deciding which ideas have merit and which don't. It's how our laws are written. It's how our Constitution was written. It's not an Illuminati thing. It's how you were raised. It's what the whole of a society that was originally built to serve the needs of white men has taught us.



Both of these statements are incredibly incorrect regarding academia.


I hope you've gone through this entire thread, it's fantastic.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:27 pm
Beelzebub wrote:@someperson
Spoiler
Possession crack cocaine carries with it a significantly higher penalty that cocaine does. The former is a drug primarily used in black communities, while the latter is primarily used by those with money (i.e white people). This is an example of a law being written to help preserve the white power structure.

Do you not know what "inherently" means? That's a bias against the poor, not against black people. Just because many black people happen to live in poverty doesn't make the law inherently racist. And I'm pretty sure the reason for that disparity in the first place is because usage of Crack Cocaine became such a widespread epidemic that it was an attempt to crack down on its usage.

Another example is a recent rash of voter ID laws going through (where else) the south the made to combat a non-existent problem that has the added bonus of keeping lower class black voters from the polls.

As far as I know those also affect the elderly and the poor in general. So again, not specifically designed to "help the white man."

However much we think we've progressed since then, we were still taught by our ancestors, who were taught by their ancestors, who were taught by their ancestors, and so on. And to think nothing from their racist brains made it down to us, and infected our thoughts, and the way we judge people, ideas, etc. is ludicrous. In fact, the only real way we've progressed is by opening ourselves up and listening to what those who don't have power (women/minorities/LGBTQIA people) have to say about their experiences.

And we are also not our ancestors, and most of us are capable of independent critical thought, at least I hope most of us are. What you're saying is probably true on some small level for some people, but to jump the conclusion that it has subconsciously warped all of our thinking into being biased towards "white men" on any significant level is absurd and you have no good evidence to back it up.

Considering other points of view is important, obviously. However, it's not as simple as "he's black," "she's a woman" etc. Everyone is an individual. "White people" and "Black people" are not a hivemind. Like the fact that you said that you'll give Kanye West "leeway" when talking about the Confederate flag is completely laughable given that Kanye West has way more money and power than the vast majority of white men. Now obviously him being black helps since a white guy doing the same thing would immediately be branded as a racist, but that's just due to the hyper political correctness that people are all about nowadays.

If slavery was so integral to the southern economy that they would fight a war to protect it, and those in the South who opposed slavery never did so to the extent that it the south could eliminate it on their own, then slavery must have been a big part of southern culture.

Did you miss what Justicar said in his video? A lot of them had a misguided religious notion that somehow God would abolish slavery when the time was right. Of course that's terrible in it's own way, but the point I'm trying to make is that most weren't actually cool with slavery and saw it as a moral evil. Is that so hard to understand? Also your point is a total non sequitur. I've already explained why fighting for the right to own slaves doesn't necessarily make it a part of your culture, and the fact that there was actually a lot of anti slave sentiment in the south.

At the very least, I hope you can understand that I am not "defending" the institution of slavery any more than you are. You at least seem more sane than Darkseid, so I hope that much gets through.

The racist assholes using it in the past and present have claimed it. In fact, it was always theirs, and because they will always exist, it will always be theirs. Just like how in the west, the swastika will always be a Nazi symbol.

Yeah, and we can claim it back, and use their own symbol against them. Literally the only argument you have against this is "it hurts peoples feewings!"

-snip-

So racist culture exists(something I already knew) and speculation based on anecdotal evidence. Like I said, citation needed.

White people do not get to re-appropriate racist symbols because we are the ones who made them. Even if it's a different generation, it doesn't matter, because we are their descendants and we learned from them and inherited their privileges. It's the same reason we can't call people 'home skillet'.

Elaborating on your point doesn't make it any less wrong.

And you think privilege is the dumb concept.

The way SJW's tout it, it very much is. And SJW is not a "concept." They're a very real group of people who'd rather blame society for their failures rather than attempt to take any sort of personal responsibility.


@Lyserg.Z
Spoiler
Again, I don't really think that changes anything. The fact that the relationship that slavery had with the US flag is "incidental" doesn't make it any less bad. The flag was flown by people who thought white people are inherently superior and that slavery was okay. That's what matters. "What it was meant to represent," is incredibly subjective.

Whether the hypothetical of an "external force" and whatever the US as a whole would've done about that, I don't really care. This is still that whole "you too!"/"but they were (hypothetically) just as bad as the Confederacy" logic that doesn't make anything about the use of the Confederate flag any more valid =/. What did happen is that one group fought in no small part because they wanted to defend/forward the slaves system and it chose to create symbology to represent that fight.

It is valid. Your whole reason for being against the appropriation of the confederate flag is because racism is somehow "foundational" to it. I question the logic that because the people the flag represented at the time were fighting for(among other things) the institution of slavery is somehow worse than a flag that represented a group of people who also owned slaves and weren't any less racist, but somehow because they weren't actively fighting for the institution that makes the flag less offensive? Sorry if I'm just reiterating my point but I'm really not getting your argument here.

As for the ww2 stuff, I guess I see your point, but at the same time I feel like you're grasping at straws just to avoid having to admit that the confederate flag has some positive history behind it.

I get you are not trying to defend slavery

Well that's good, you're definitely more reasonable than the others, and I've enjoyed this exchange. Though I don't see what could really even lead one to consider that beyond a knee jerk "HE DOESN'T AGREE WITH ME SO HE'S RACIST" response.

itself as a political group, as one side of that civil war, is a different beast and one that I think was very much about slavery.

And the Rebel Flag doesn't have to represent the entirety of the confederacy, just like the American Flag doesn't have to represent all the horrible shit the United States has done. The Civil War as a conflict was heavily tied to slavery, but I don't think the southern people and by extension very much was, at least not much more than the north was(now that I think of it, there were actually states in the union during the Civil War that had slaves, like Delaware and Washington.)

But, aren't you like, arguing about what could happen or what can be done with symbology as a whole rather than what's actually going on with the confederate flag?

Truth be told I'm not exactly sure what is going on and how many people are actually seeking to re-appropriate in the way I describe compared to people who use it as a white supremacist symbol. I don't think anyone really does. As was mentioned before, polls can only do so much.

If the argument is about changing its meaning to something else then we have to recognize some symbols do have power and do have an agreed upon meaning, because otherwise the very excercise of trying to change its meaning is... well, meaningless and pointless, so why even do it.

It's about changing perception. If you can change the popular perception of a symbol, than you've effectively "changed" it's meaning.

Why choose to associate with the Confederacy instead of moving on from it?

1. Because people view the Rebel Flag symbolizing the south as a whole and a symbol of resisting tyranny(even though the reasons for doing so during the civil war was wrong and misguided.) I don't think the Confederacy was much more racist than the early united states, or even the Union for that matter, for reasons I've already explained.

2. Like I said before, the best way to fight symbolism is with symbolism. If you completely demonize the flag, then all you're going to do is make more racists rally around it. I don't think creating black and white(heh) dichotomies with something like a flag will lead to any good. Kanye West may be silly regarding a lot of things, but I'm totally on board with him taking a symbol widely known to symbolize hate and using it as a big middle finger to the bigots who fly it.

I think I've pretty much addressed the rest.


1. You keep saying 'the confederate flag has positive history' without ever providing an actual example of the positive things it's been used for. You say 'the fight against tyranny', but that's a bullshit myth made up during by the Daughters of the Confederacy to perpetuate the idea that the South's fight to keep slavery was merely a side issue, and not the main issue. The people who believe that Confederate flag ever represented a 'fight against tyranny' not only believe a lie, they believe an easily disprovable lie.

2. When one group is flying the flag with the intent of displaying white supremacy and the other group is flying the flag with the intent of displaying Southern Pride, and the two groups are virtually indistinguishable, and the white supremacist group had it first, then no, you cannot claim it and say it means something else, because that makes you either ignorant of what it has always meant, or delusional, and no one without who isn't also ignorant or delusional is going to believe you.

3. You think intent has so much more importance than it actually does, when in reality it has very little importance compared to the actual result. The intent of these people is to display southern pride (already a racist notion, because it is, subconsciously, pride in white southerners), but the end result is that people of color see the display and feel unwelcome. And your argument is opinion of the people who value the intent (those displaying the confederate flag) is more important than the opinion of those who get a result (people who are made to feel unwelcome by the flag's display) and that's a terrible way to view this. This argument allows someone to do whatever without ever considering the result, or how their viewed by the rest of society.

4. Would you deny that the Jim Crow era voting laws were inherently racist? They never specifically mention black people, but trying to deny that their main target was keeping black people from voting is ridiculous. So how are modern voting laws, which are designed to target a group that has a disproportionate amount people of color, any different?

5. You keep saying individual critical though, like we aren't the product of our environment. That what we value isn't based on experience, and that a large portion of our experiences during our formative years are shaped by our parents, and then many of the ideals we value aren't based on things from the culture we grew up in. No one exists in a bubble. Everyone is shaped by the ideas of those who came before us. The reason we are more advanced than our ancestors is because we've tried to listen to people who aren't like us and took them seriously when they've said that our actions have consequences on their lives. So to dismiss the people who say that the display of the Confederate flag makes them feel unwelcome as having 'hurt feewings' is to be actively regressive, which is an unbelievably dangerous view of society.

Fredo_Corleone wrote:Both of these statements are incredibly incorrect regarding academia.


Possibly. It's been a long...*looks back a few pages*....six goddamn days.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:33 am
Well this is repetitive. This'll probably be my last reply to you unless you respond with something that I haven't already addressed a bunch of times.
Spoiler
someperson wrote:You keep saying 'the confederate flag has positive history without ever providing an actual example of the positive things it's been used for.

Yes I have. The fact that it was flown by US soldiers while fighting the Nazi's. The fact that slavery wasn't actually integral to southern culture, most southerners didn't even own slaves, and there's nothing really to suggest that the people in the south were much more racist than people in the north.

You say 'the fight against tyranny', but that's a bullshit myth made up during by the Daughters of the Confederacy to perpetuate the idea that the South's fight to keep slavery was merely a side issue, and not the main issue.

Y'know, if you're gonna respond to stuff that's not even addressed towards you, you could at least do me the service of reading the whole thing and the context around it. I literally state right after that their reasons for doing so were wrong and misguided ie. fighting for the right to own slaves. That doesn't mean the idea of fighting tyranny can't be appreciated on a more general level, hence re-appropriation. Also I'll have you know that I don't buy into the historical revisionist stuff that paints the south as totally noble and the north as some evil oppressors, so please don't lump me in with that crowd.

When one group is flying the flag with the intent of displaying white supremacy and the other group is flying the flag with the intent of displaying Southern Pride, and the two groups are virtually indistinguishable

Really? Because from what I understand certain supporters try to explicitly distance themselves from the racists. Hell, even some black people defend the flag, and not just celebrities either.

you cannot claim it and say it means something else, because that makes you either ignorant of what it has always meant, or delusional, and no one without who isn't also ignorant or delusional is going to believe you.

So you've completely abandoned on trying to justify your position then? Because all I'm reading here is "no ur wrong."

You think intent has so much more importance than it actually does, when in reality it has very little importance compared to the actual result. The intent of these people is to display southern pride (already a racist notion, because it is, subconsciously, pride in white southerners), but the end result is that people of color see the display and feel unwelcome. And your argument is opinion of the people who value the intent (those displaying the confederate flag) is more important than the opinion of those who get a result (people who are made to feel unwelcome by the flag's display) and that's a terrible way to view this. This argument allows someone to do whatever without ever considering the result, or how their viewed by the rest of society.

We've been over this. No one said that intent on it's own makes a different. It's the changes the people with that intent are trying to make, which I'm not convinced are unrealistic. "Pride in white southerners" is no more racist than pride in americans in general. The whole point is to change perception, so people don't look at it that way. I'm pretty sure that's the point of stuff like "Heritage not Hate." Granted, from what I can tell that in particular seems have some historical revisionism going on, but at least they have the right idea as far as trying to change perceptions of the flag.


Would you deny that the Jim Crow era voting laws were inherently racist?

No, because the Jim Crow laws as a whole were explicitly implemented for the purposes of racial segregation.

They never specifically mention black people, but trying to deny that their main target was keeping black people from voting is ridiculous. So how are modern voting laws, which are designed to target a group that has a disproportionate amount people of color, any different?

It's a false comparison for the reasons stated above. And I'm pretty sure black people were specifically given things like those ridiculous literacy tests. The stuff you mentioned before also applies to white people, so it's a bad comparison.

You keep saying individual critical though

Because it is.

Like we aren't the product of our environment.

To an extent, but it's up to the individual how they process that environment. Given today's ultra PC attitudes, the claims you're making are dubious at best.

That what we value isn't based on experience, and that a large portion of our experiences during our formative years are shaped by our parents

Still waiting on evidence that somehow there's a subconscious desire in all Americans to "look out for the white man" or whatever.

Everyone is shaped by the ideas of those who came before us.

And everyone is an individual and interprets the world around them differently, so stop pretending like you know that everyone has a subconscious pro white male bias.

The reason we are more advanced than our ancestors is because we've tried to listen to people who aren't like us and took them seriously when they've said that our actions have consequences on their lives. So to dismiss the people who say that the display of the Confederate flag makes them feel unwelcome as having 'hurt feewings' is to be actively regressive, which is an unbelievably dangerous view of society.

Pretty sure it mainly to do with recognizing the importance of judging people solely by the content of their characters and not discriminating based on ethnicity or gender. Y'know, since that was the whole reason woman and minorities were in less favorable positions to begin with. And yes considering their point of view played a role as well, obviously, but that doesn't support the silly concept of "privilege" pushed nowadays that somehow just belonging to a minority group and or having less "privilege" than someone else makes your opinion more valuable, or worse, that being more "privileged" somehow prohibits you from having an opinion concerning those with less "privilege."

Oh, and what a dishonest comparison. The flag is not oppressing anyone in and of itself, and the whole point is to change public perception of it to something more positive. The regressive ones are people like you, who are unwilling to look at the bigger picture, and determined to look at symbols as somehow being permanently and irreversibly tarnished for the atrocities that have been associated with them.
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