someperson wrote:You keep saying 'the confederate flag has positive history without ever providing an actual example of the positive things it's been used for.
Yes I have. The fact that it was flown by US soldiers while fighting the Nazi's. The fact that slavery wasn't actually integral to southern culture, most southerners didn't even own slaves, and there's nothing really to suggest that the people in the south were much more racist than people in the north.
You say 'the fight against tyranny', but that's a bullshit myth made up during by the Daughters of the Confederacy to perpetuate the idea that the South's fight to keep slavery was merely a side issue, and not the main issue.
Y'know, if you're gonna respond to stuff that's not even addressed towards you, you could at least do me the service of reading the whole thing and the context around it. I literally state right after that their reasons for doing so were wrong and misguided ie. fighting for the right to own slaves. That doesn't mean the idea of fighting tyranny can't be appreciated on a more general level, hence re-appropriation. Also I'll have you know that I don't buy into the historical revisionist stuff that paints the south as totally noble and the north as some evil oppressors, so please don't lump me in with that crowd.
When one group is flying the flag with the intent of displaying white supremacy and the other group is flying the flag with the intent of displaying Southern Pride, and the two groups are virtually indistinguishable
Really? Because from what I understand certain supporters try to explicitly distance themselves from the racists. Hell, even some black people defend the flag, and not just celebrities either.
you cannot claim it and say it means something else, because that makes you either ignorant of what it has always meant, or delusional, and no one without who isn't also ignorant or delusional is going to believe you.
So you've completely abandoned on trying to justify your position then? Because all I'm reading here is "no ur wrong."
You think intent has so much more importance than it actually does, when in reality it has very little importance compared to the actual result. The intent of these people is to display southern pride (already a racist notion, because it is, subconsciously, pride in white southerners), but the end result is that people of color see the display and feel unwelcome. And your argument is opinion of the people who value the intent (those displaying the confederate flag) is more important than the opinion of those who get a result (people who are made to feel unwelcome by the flag's display) and that's a terrible way to view this. This argument allows someone to do whatever without ever considering the result, or how their viewed by the rest of society.
We've been over this. No one said that intent on it's own makes a different. It's the changes the people with that intent are trying to make, which I'm not convinced are unrealistic. "Pride in white southerners" is no more racist than pride in americans in general. The whole point is to change perception, so people don't look at it that way. I'm pretty sure that's the point of stuff like "Heritage not Hate." Granted, from what I can tell that in particular seems have some historical revisionism going on, but at least they have the right idea as far as trying to change perceptions of the flag.
Would you deny that the Jim Crow era voting laws were inherently racist?
No, because the Jim Crow laws as a whole were explicitly implemented for the purposes of racial segregation.
They never specifically mention black people, but trying to deny that their main target was keeping black people from voting is ridiculous. So how are modern voting laws, which are designed to target a group that has a disproportionate amount people of color, any different?
It's a false comparison for the reasons stated above. And I'm pretty sure black people were specifically given things like those ridiculous literacy tests. The stuff you mentioned before also applies to white people, so it's a bad comparison.
You keep saying individual critical though
Because it is.
Like we aren't the product of our environment.
To an extent, but it's up to the individual how they process that environment. Given today's ultra PC attitudes, the claims you're making are dubious at best.
That what we value isn't based on experience, and that a large portion of our experiences during our formative years are shaped by our parents
Still waiting on evidence that somehow there's a subconscious desire in all Americans to "look out for the white man" or whatever.
Everyone is shaped by the ideas of those who came before us.
And everyone is an individual and interprets the world around them differently, so stop pretending like you know that everyone has a subconscious pro white male bias.
The reason we are more advanced than our ancestors is because we've tried to listen to people who aren't like us and took them seriously when they've said that our actions have consequences on their lives. So to dismiss the people who say that the display of the Confederate flag makes them feel unwelcome as having 'hurt feewings' is to be actively regressive, which is an unbelievably dangerous view of society.
Pretty sure it mainly to do with recognizing the importance of judging people solely by the content of their characters and not discriminating based on ethnicity or gender. Y'know, since that was the whole reason woman and minorities were in less favorable positions to begin with. And yes considering their point of view played a role as well, obviously, but that doesn't support the silly concept of "privilege" pushed nowadays that somehow just belonging to a minority group and or having less "privilege" than someone else makes your opinion more valuable, or worse, that being more "privileged" somehow prohibits you from having an opinion concerning those with less "privilege."
Oh, and what a dishonest comparison. The flag is not oppressing anyone in and of itself, and the whole point is to change public perception of it to something more positive. The regressive ones are people like you, who are unwilling to look at the bigger picture, and determined to look at symbols as somehow being permanently and irreversibly tarnished for the atrocities that have been associated with them.