Let's discuss the Confederate Flag.

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The Other Ripley
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:09 pm
I'm not sure how many of you live in Virginia or any other state that happens to be chock full of rednecks, but I do, and somehow I have befriended many of these people prior to the recent shooting that has caused a lot of controversy over the Confederate flag. To further clarify, I am friends with them on Facebook. Now with this going on, I see post after post after post defending that outdated piece of cloth, every single one of them appealing entirely to emotion and not a single argument based on fact.

I can't sass these people because they're my friends and I know that this is a very sensitive subject for them. Sass is typically the way I cope with stupidity, but now I know I'll endanger myself if I use that to combat this particular instance of stupidity.

So instead, I'm bringing my thoughts here instead of there, and I hope that you, my fellow g1s, can do the same as well. I have quite a lot to say on this matter, as you might have figured out.

First things first, the worst of the worst is the posts proudly claiming the south will rise again. These are rare even here, for sure, but that is the epitome of stupidity. You do not want the south to rise again, no matter where you live. There is no defending you if you actually want the United States of America to once again go through the Hell that was the American Civil War.

Second, one argument defending the flag is that it no longer means what it meant 150 years ago when it actually referred to a "nation." Now, they say, it is just a symbol of southern pride. False. The Confederate Flag is a symbol of white southern pride. There is no black man alive who looks at that flag with pride. Who's he got to be proud of from that era? His hard-working slave ancestors? Or the brave general who's now rolling in his grave over the fact that black kids are allowed in white schools? Being a white southerner is nothing to be proud of. It is something to be ashamed of. "Oh, but those northerners are kinda mean in traffic and don't have sweet tea!" Two wrongs don't make a right, and one wrong and one subjectively unpleasant definitely don't make a right.

Third, you can't be a Confederate and a Patriot at the same time. Yes, a lot of posts I see tell me that "I'm a Confederate, your approval is not required" (to which I am oh so tempted to say "Then why do you care that you don't have it?"), but these people also claim to love America. Let's just say the Confederate flag being a sign of racism is just me being all emotional and beating dead horses and wanting revenge (note: I'm white), and whatever. If there's one thing that the Confederate flag definitely, objectively, irrefutably represents, it's the single greatest, bloodiest revolt against America in history.

Oh, one asks, but what about the American Revolution against the British? See, the difference is that the CSA had no intention of abiding by the American way, and that the American Revolution had nothing to do with slavery. The American Revolution was an effort made for freedom, whereas the CSA was established out of pure butthurt at a presidential election.

TL;DR: I'm from further south than any "Confederate" I know, and I say: Get that flag out of my sight.
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I Just Got the Bundle for Free
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2015 10:01 pm
Man, it's a flag.
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SA's #1 Bro
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:42 pm
The flag is racist.

Anyone who argues otherwise is full of crap or taught lies by a completely fucked up governing culture that really wants to white wash the worst atrocities white people committed in history.

You can partly blame my state of Texas on this, as our insane textbook buying power has lead to us impacting what other states can order, and we usually order books with a lot of "ACTUALLY TAXES" idiocy, among other such bullcrap. I think the actual truth is miles more important than not making white kids feel guilting for a thing their ancestors did. It's important to know your people's history and how it impacts the world around us, no matter how ugly it may be.
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Scavenger Extraordinaire
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:22 pm
I don't like what the flag stands for, but someone wants to wear a confederate flag shirt or put one in their front yard, they should have all the right to do so.

Also?

If someone personally considers the flag to be just a symbol of southern pride, and not white supremacy, what exactly is the problem? The meaning of symbols is subjective and can change. For example, the swastika was originally just a symbol in Hinduism that represented good fortune.
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SA's #1 Bro
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:22 am
Beelzebub wrote:I don't like what the flag stands for, but someone wants to wear a confederate flag shirt or put one in their front yard, they should have all the right to do so.

Also?

If someone personally considers the flag to be just a symbol of southern pride, and not white supremacy, what exactly is the problem? The meaning of symbols is subjective and can change. For example, the swastika was originally just a symbol in Hinduism that represented good fortune.

Uh, no.

The swastika was appropriated by bigots and also has a slight design change in the direction the ends are pointing.

The confederate flag was made by bigots, for bigots. "Southern pride" is an incredibly abstract concept, but history is proof enough that the flag stood for preserving slavery at a time when the western world was finally getting rid of the vile, racist institution. It was literally a symbol of being a backwards racist monster that fought to own other human beings and mistreat them however they saw fit.

Also, a fuck ton of white supremacists sure seem found of the flag. Gee, it's almost like it's a symbol of white superiority or something. And keep in mind they adopted the racist thing pretty, pretty quickly after the Civil War.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:32 pm
Darkseid wrote:The swastika was appropriated by bigots and also has a slight design change in the direction the ends are pointing.

Yes and? The point is that the symbol known as the "swastika" gained a new meaning.

The confederate flag was made by bigots, for bigots."Southern pride" is an incredibly abstract concept, but history is proof enough that the flag stood for preserving slavery at a time when the western world was finally getting rid of the vile, racist institution. It was literally a symbol of being a backwards racist monster that fought to own other human beings and mistreat them however they saw fit.

Symbols don't possess any inherent meaning, only the meaning we ascribe to them. If a group of people want to adopt a symbol that originally stood for something ugly and immoral, and make it stand for something innocuous, I really don't see the issue.
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An Empty Quote
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:42 pm
Iron Joe wrote: Now, they say, it is just a symbol of southern pride. False. The Confederate Flag is a symbol of white southern pride. There is no black man alive who looks at that flag with pride.

This is a very good point, and a factor that the legions of Confederate flag supporters either don't realize or, more likely, choose to ignore.

Iron Joe wrote: Being a white southerner is nothing to be proud of. It is something to be ashamed of.
presidential election.

This I cannot agree with. As a white Southerner (I've lived my whole life in Georgia) I'm certainly not ashamed to be from the South, to be white, or to be both. I didn't do anything to be ashamed of and, despite that fact that far too many members of my family were (and in rare cases, still are) horrible racists, I'm not responsible for their actions and feelings. I would agree that the history of the South is awful, but I didn't contribute to it and I don't bear any responsibility for it, at all.

As for the flag, I am not a fan and at least mentally roll my eyes every time I see one. Some people might not realize that the flag only came back to prominence to protest civil rights, show white supremacy, and scare black people, but most of them do and either don't care, or love it for that very reason.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:59 pm
@BecomingP2

Oh wow I totally missed that.

"Being a white southerner is nothing to be proud of. It is something to be ashamed of."
Yeah, no offense Joe, but that's total bullshit. There's no reason to be personally ashamed of something you yourself had no part in. It's also bad to limit your view of southern history to the ugliest parts, when there are plenty of non ugly parts as well. The flag on its own has a lot of history behind it. Yes it was used by a group who supported slavery, but it was also flown when the Americans stormed the beaches of Normandy fighting the Germans.

Also to add to what to what I was saying before, there are also examples of symbols that originally stood for something disgusting being adopted by people and made to stand for something positive. The pink triangle, for example was originally used in Nazi Germany to identify homosexuals, similar to how Stars of David were used to identify Jewish people. The gay community has adopted it and turned it into a symbol for gay rights.
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SA's #1 Bro
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:30 pm
BecomingPt2 wrote:
Iron Joe wrote: Now, they say, it is just a symbol of southern pride. False. The Confederate Flag is a symbol of white southern pride. There is no black man alive who looks at that flag with pride.

This is a very good point, and a factor that the legions of Confederate flag supporters either don't realize or, more likely, choose to ignore.

Iron Joe wrote: Being a white southerner is nothing to be proud of. It is something to be ashamed of.
presidential election.

This I cannot agree with. As a white Southerner (I've lived my whole life in Georgia) I'm certainly not ashamed to be from the South, to be white, or to be both. I didn't do anything to be ashamed of and, despite that fact that far too many members of my family were (and in rare cases, still are) horrible racists, I'm not responsible for their actions and feelings. I would agree that the history of the South is awful, but I didn't contribute to it and I don't bear any responsibility for it, at all.

As for the flag, I am not a fan and at least mentally roll my eyes every time I see one. Some people might not realize that the flag only came back to prominence to protest civil rights, show white supremacy, and scare black people, but most of them do and either don't care, or love it for that very reason.

I like you.

I live in the south myself, in the good old red of Texas, and I don't feel guilty for my heritage because I realize that's not me. My want to move is mostly because of my sexual orientation than anything else. Taking down that flag isn't my fight, it's just not my place to put it up and empower centuries old systems that put down minorities (and I sort of am one being bi and half-Portuguese, so...). All I can do is support the black community's fight to take the damn thing down and make its true meaning known to the world, because lord knows some people need reminding.

There's an argument to be made for a symbol being re-appropriated, but that hasn't happened these days. A ton of racist assholes still use the thing, and they're the loudest about it not coming down. The flag is still a symbol of white pride in all the worst ways, and it will continue to be at this rate.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:02 pm
There's an argument to be made for a symbol being re-appropriated, but that hasn't happened these days. A ton of racist assholes still use the thing, and they're the loudest about it not coming down. The flag is still a symbol of white pride in all the worst ways, and it will continue to be at this rate.

So the fact that a group of racist assholes think it stands for one thing automatically negates the opinions of all the people who think it should stand for another thing? That doesn't follow.
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