The Christian Worldview Explained

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Best Backpack Ever
Best Backpack Ever
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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 7:34 pm
Beelzebub wrote:kinda forgot about the forums, it's why I'm replying so late

Nah, that's fine. I kind of did too. I've always been very irregular on here myself, disappearing for a month or more then reappearing.

Beelzebub wrote:anyway, it's not about what I like, it's about the idea being ethically preposterous to begin with. according to the christian worldview(protestant evangelical at least, which I'm guessing you fall under) you can act like the most vile piece of trash imaginable, but if you're on your death bed and you repent for your sins with sincerity to the correct god, you get a free ride to eternal bliss. something similar to this happend in the bible iirc, with the theives crucified alongside jesus. on the flipside, if you have a perfectly decent and well meaning person who happens to have been misled spiritually, they'll be condemed to perdition if they die without changing their belief system. any moral framework that gives a mass serial killer/child rapist who's really sorry about what he did more lenience than a spiritually confused but decent man is pretty shitty imo

John Lennox does a fine job explaining this under the tab “Isn't it unfair to claim that the people who don't believe in Jesus are condemned to hell?” which I have posted near the top of page 1 if you care to check that out. Here's a bit of a snippet I would point out though:

”Jesus said, 'For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.' Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, 'What? Are we blind too?' Jesus said, 'If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.' (John 9:39-41)

What Jesus is saying here, is if one simply knows no better, like say a 4 year old for example, it will not be held against them. But if they gain a clear conscience as to what is right and wrong, and are provided evidence of wrongdoing but still insist in their own way, its on them. God sends His provision through His followers, prophets, and written word. If people know of this and yet still refuse to so much as give God a hearing, what more could be done?

EDIT: Actually I just went ahead and yoinked that video to save you the hassle of digging for it:
Spoiler

Beelzebub wrote:not to mention, the idea makes no sense to begin with. If a person commits heinous acts, he and he alone is responsible for them. someone else taking the punishment doesn't actually accomplish anything. the entire point of punishment is to deter the future occurence of whatever transgression and to discipline the transgressor in question. having someone else take the punishment accomplishes neither of these.

The reason why God took the punishment is because it is impossible for us to pay it on our own. The consequences are eternal. Shall a loving and merciful God abandon us with no hope? He would not have been wrong in letting us reap the consequences, but thats just not how He rolls. The gift of salvation is “free “in the sense that we don't need to perfectly live up to God's lofty moral perfection to still make it, but its not free in the sense that it's compulsory Heaven for the immoral. The gift must be willingly received by the individual, and they shall be spiritually cleansed. If indeed they lived a detestable life only to repent last minute, they will at the very least be saved, but their reward will not be equal to those who have led a genuinely faithful life. “For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.” (Matthew 16:27)

Iron Joe wrote:On top of that, neither is that accomplished by punishing the perpetrator for all of eternity with no means of going back while not letting anyone else see it so that he can't be an example.

In Luke 16:19-31 there is a bit of an explanation on this when it talks about Lazarus and the Rich Man. Also for the record, there are hundreds, if not thousands of compelling Hell and afterlife testimonies. I will share a few if you'd like, but only if you insist on such evidence. I'd rather share God's love than talk about the horrors of that wretched place. Here's the passage about Lazarus and the Rich Man though if you'd care to view that:
Spoiler
“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ 'No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Iron Joe wrote:Sure, there were plenty of people warning him, but there were also people warning him about that, not just Atheists but those of other religions as well. There really isn't anything that makes Christianity more valid than Islam.

And many people weren't warned about it. Many have come to believe in their non-Christian religions the same way Christians come to believe in theirs. They obviously feel just as strongly about their God, and given that all the ways God shows Himself to people are purely psychological, no one religion can prove it any better than the other, and furthermore, it can be very, very easily explained away by someone who's not afraid to consider the possibility of such.

Not true. I mentioned at the beginning of this that there seems to be a few misconceptions about religion, and this is perhaps the biggest one. It's become a popular excuse to say “All religions are basically the same” to discredit them, but anyone whose actually taken a moment to examine them know that it's simply not true. This might come as a surprise, but my Christian faith is evidence based. If one were to ask me “What would it take for you not to believe?” They'd have an awful lot to cover. They'd have to convince me that Jesus never died, was never buried, and never rose again, when there's strong historical evidence supporting that He did. They'd have to give me a believable explanation as to how and why there was a massive explosion of Christianity after Jesus died, on the basis of a Christ that never resurrected. They'd have to convince me that the dozens, if not hundreds of lives I've seen transformed after receiving Christ , including my own, was nothing more than an illusion. They'd have to explain to me what on earth demonic hauntings are, and why Jesus' name is so powerfully effective at neutralizing them. They'd have to explain to me why there are so many powerful testimonies of converts, who formerly hated Christianity and some who murdered Christians. A few fascinating examples off the top of my head:
Spoiler
Muslim Hezbollah Soldier Encounters Jesus:

Ex-Satan Worshipper Encounters Jesus:

Hindu Guru Encounters Jesus:

Atheist Finds Jesus:

Man witnesses The Judgement Seat after Death:

Iron Joe wrote:Christianity is slowly losing its grip on America.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Secularism has been the popular belief of society lately, but the way things are shaping up, one of two things are going to happen soon: Either we're on the verge of a spiritual revival, or we're due for the next great calamity. I'd give it no more than two years. Let's wait and see.

Also Joe, I can't help but notice that pretty much every issue you've listed about Christianity was addressed, or at least touched on in a number of the videos I listed at the beginning. If you really want a decent explanation to these concerns, feel free to give it a view.
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Squall's a Wuss
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 12:49 pm
Just because Jesus actually existed and died doesn't necessarily mean there's a higher dimensional being shedding tears every time I touch my wiener. Just because one thing in the Bible is true doesn't mean everything is. Also, do you have any idea how easy it is to fake a testimony of a visit to the afterlife? I could do that right now. I could just as easily bullshit something about how when you die you become a Nightopian and jam out to invisible flute music courtesy of flying androgynous jesters for eternity, by claiming that that's what happened to me when I blacked out after falling off a roof.

Also, that a religion transformed somebody's life, causing them to act ways they never could have otherwise, is not proof of their god's existence. Those guys who rammed into the Twin Towers didn't do it for the money.
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Party Demon
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 10:48 pm
you've entierly missed the point red, so let me just rephrase in a way that's hopefully more clear. I understand the Christian stance on moral culpability, you're not actually responding to my point criticizing it.

You're telling me that an otherwise decent person who happens to, for one reason or another, not become a Christian is condemed to perdition, but a serial killer baby rapist who says he's sorry to Jesus will recieve eternal paradise. There's a glaring issue regarding the hugely disproportionate reward and punishment these two will recieve. So disproportionate that it renders any action a person takes in their lives other than repenting totally meaningless.

"but their reward won't be as good"

I had some trouble trying to articulate exactly how ridiculous this point was to me. "Hey man we were gonna give you this billion dollar mansion on a private island with a giant harem of bikini models who will tend to your every whim but since you murdered a bunch of pre schoolers we're only gonna give you a half billion dollar mansion on a smaller private island with a medium sized harem of slightly less hot bikini models." Plus, when the other choice is being tormented forever, any alternative would be amazing by comparison. Your religion is fine with giving repentant scumbags infinitely more leniance than a misled but decent man, a man who might very well exemplify the character of a christian, having internalized christian values without actually becoming one himself. According to its moral framework the act of being skeptical/indifferent/confused about the doctrine of Christianity is infinitely worse than any other crime a human could concievably commit. It doesn't get much more immoral than trivalizing all morally meaningful actions sans one.

@crucifixion stuff

None of that explains why the vicarious redemption nonsense is necessary though. If God is so loving and merciful than merely forgiving us and only asking that we repent and accept his forgiveness accomplishes the same thing, minus the theatrics. Also, I wasn't asking you why it was necessary, I was criticizing the concept of VR in the first place, how it does not make sense from a purely objective standpoint. No offense dude, but it still seems like you're less looking to having a discussion and more just reading off a list of talking points. The fact that you're also directing me to watch christian apologetics videos adds to this.
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