DEATH BATTLE Discussion: Natsu vs Ace

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:36 pm
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@neo

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Neosonic97 wrote:That feat is temperature/weather changing, which is a type of calculation I don't put much stock in, due to the fact that it's not a DC or durability feat. It's just manipulating the weather which really comes down to just changing the temperature. Also even if it were it requires Ace to use his Mera Mera no Mi powers and... we've already discussed exactly how useful those are actually going to be against Natsu (See: absolutely useless). Also of note is that it only seems to have changed the temperature from -50 to 5 degrees celcius. On top of this, it's also sketchy considering the characters on said island didn't notice any particular change in temperature (They would've noticed), so it's likely Ace only stopped the snow clouds in the sky. Considering Natsu did something similar at the start of one of the arcs (Just before meeting up with Lucy to discuss reforming Fairy Tail, the start of the Alvarez Empire Arc I think), he starts melting stone just by being there. That's more impressive than melting snow/dispersing snow clouds, even if Ace did it over a wider area, Natsu reached temperatures MUCH, MUCH higher. (somewhere between 700-1300 degrees celcius higher to be precise, depending on the melting point of the stones making up the Colosseum he was in.).


I don't think you understand how science works. To heat an object, you add energy to it. Ace did this across a the atmosphere over an entire island, so Ace generated a ton of energy to do so. Much more than it is required to melt a relatively small bit of rock. This DC applies to Ace's physical stats too, as he fought on par with Blackbeard, who could handle Ace's fire attacks, and tanked many of Blackbeard's punches


@kk

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Kirby kid wrote:The hand Gajeel uses to grab Rogue out of the ground is his physical hand in the manga and we can see that because it has the same exact coloration that his hand has when his body is outside of the shadows in the very next panel of the same page. We see this because the "shadow hand" you're referring to is clamping down on Rogues shadow, and you can tell because of the splash down affect the hand has on the shadow, unless you're saying that somehow happened out of the shadows, which is less than likely to be the case.

Even then, we have another source that shows the scene in better detail, I don't know why you have to be picky about the canon when DB will be accepting all of them?


I don't understand why you keep harping on this. However the case, the main point I'm trying to make is that Gajeel was only able to pull him out of the shadows because he knows Shadow Dragon Slayer Magic as well. Natsu has never shown he has the means of actually hurting someone with intangibility similar to Ace's

Just because he didn't fight Atlas, doesn't mean he couldn't have hurt him, hell, everyone needed Natsu to be there because they needed a fire dragon slayer, and they never got the opportunity to fight because Atlas had already realized that they were friends.


Natsu felt the best way of dealing with a dragon made of fire was to eat it, which had no effect on Atlas Flame. Unless you can prove without question that Natsu harmed him, you don't really have a leg to stand on here

No.

I watched the scene already, and just for you, I did again. My answer remains the same, his expression/reaction to having Igneel the king of the dragons on his back is FEAR, of course he realizes that he's not actually on his back, and he understands he's his friend, but his expression to it is what i was getting at.


Please explain why you think it's fear. It's an awfully large assumption to make with the evidence provided. Because his eyes widened when he realized the connection between Natsu and his friend? The scene shows Atlas Flame being shocked by the realization a mere human learned his king's magical abilities. Atlas Flame was irritated by Natsu not getting off his back, but wasn't actually suffering from the experience. Why would he suddenly become frightened by a character that couldn't do anything to him? Why would he get scared by feeling the presence of a very good friend of his within Natsu? It's surprise, not fear. It's not a hard distinction to make with the context in mind

You don't have to repeat anything, because the answer is the same either way, Natsu is touching Aces body, fire or not. Period.

You also don't need to keep repeating that you're repeating things.


I really do though, because this is a point people are having a hard time grasping. If Natsu punches Ace, all his fist will meet will be fire, and touching that fire will not harm Ace because it's not his real body

He felt everything Ace had because that's how his powers worked. He feels all the pain of all the attacks that happen to him because of her nature of the fruit, not because they're effective.


His Devil Fruit can suck anything, including attacks. If Blackbeard is hit by an attack, all that damage is sucked into him, including all the pain the attack would've dealt. Nothing from the attack is dispersed or dissipated; Blackbeard feels it all. That is his Dark Dark Fruit's weakness. But it doesn't make Blackbeard weaker to attacks or increase the effectiveness of Ace''s attacks, it just means Blackbeard receives 100% of that damage

But the original point you were making was that Ace was blindly throwing fire attacks at Blackbeard when he knew they wouldn't work. You admit otherwise now, that Ace could hurt Blackbeard with his fire. And he wasn't 100% reliant on his Flame Flame Fruit. Van Augur notes while watching the fight from a distance what I have been saying all along: that Ace has great melee fighting skill even without considering his Devil Fruit, as proven by the fact that he is a Commander in the strongest pirate fleet in the world at that time in the story

This is fair, though, can Jimbei counter Aces intangibility? Has he shown to do this or is this just an inference?


He would've had to, otherwise how else would he have hurt Ace? My theory is that he was able to touch Ace because of his water manipulation similar to how Luffy bypassed Enel's intangibility because he's made of rubber

How fast can Ace move while made of fire? Sure you can react to a bullet train, doesn't mean you can move as fast as one. Natsu can consume city block level amounts of fire at once within seconds, Ace can react to that but I doubt he'd be able to move out in time to do that.


Sabo while he was still learning how to use his new Devil Fruit was able to maneuver around the battlefield against Fujitora fairly well. Someone like Ace with much greater control and experience over the Fruit should be even better. And it's not so much needing to outrun Natsu's eating as it is dissipating and quickly reforming behind him or something for a surprise attack

He doesn't though so what's your point?


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No.

You can't honestly expect me to believe that the admirals, these God tier levels dudes, sat on their hands for 2 whole f*cking years without training. You even contradict yourself saying that they didn't get "that much stronger" because that already means that they had to have gone through some form of training to keep their title of admiral.


Aokiji and Akainu were Marines for decades before they fought. They were both Vice Admirals 25 years before the start of the story. For decades they've trained and built up experience against what one could imagine must've been a staggering amount of diverse opponents. Eventually they reached the title of Admiral, which are considered to be the Marine's strongest fighting force. They were strong enough to harm Whitebeard, who although was not as strong as he used to be remained arguably the strongest character in the series, and definitely the strongest using feats. Their skill and experience were so great that they were each recommended by different parties to become the next Fleet Admiral, the head boss of the Marines. Every pirate they come across runs away in fear because they know they'll be fucking bulldozed over by them. Even Blackbeard ran away from Akainu when he randomly showed up because he did not want to deal with him, and that was after he got Whitebeard's Fruit. The ones who don't flee are stupid, strong enough to hold their own against them for some time but are ultimately not on their level, or are Yonko AKA the fucking god tiers

So yes, I do expect you to think they didn't train when there's no indication the did. They don't fucking need to! Not they have time to anyways, since they're both highly busy taking down pirates (or in Aokiji's case doing whatever the fuck he wants now)

I think you misread me.

I'm not against Ace scaling in the sense that I'm ok with it if it's happened PRE-timeskip.

I literally do not accept post timeskip content. I'm not backing down from that, because it goes against what I've considered scaling for the longest time.


Then you need to reevaluate and change how you view scaling, because everything I've proposed, whether if you agree with the exact cases or not, follows the rules of scaling. It doesn't matter when a feat takes place, whether it's before or after a character died, but if that character has a logical argument to scale to that feat, they should

But with that Drum island calc feat, I have more than a few problems with that-

We don't know how long it took Ace to melt all that ice. The dude who mentions the day the "stranger" came in it didn't snow "All day" but what about the night before? Did he arrive there and all the snow instantly melt? Why didn't literally the entire island and the people on it die from the resulting heat? Wouldn't an instance like that instantly boil anyone on that islands blood?

Also, that calc considers the clouds in the sky as being evaporated too, as the comments seem to say it does, but there are clouds in the sky for the manga scan AND anime version of that scan. Does that significantly depower the feat? Am I being a picky son of a bitch?

Maybe.

Most likely.

But these are things we have to consider.


They discuss some of this in the comments of the blog, but I do think you are reading too much into it yea. When Ace showed up to the island, snow stopped falling. The idea being presented is that Ace was the cause of this. The talk of evaporating clouds was before Sherlock updated it to assume he heated the island up to the castle
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:46 pm
thomasj3-shura wrote:@KK

Post-time skip Aokiji with a missing leg and 2 years of probably fuck all seeing as he generally does nothing unless he has to


You do realize that during the timeskip is when Aokiji fought Akainu, right? The same Akainu who stomped the weakened Ace? Ace cannot scale to Aokiji's best, regardless of whether it's pre-skip or post-skip. Either A: Aokiji grew stronger, or B: He wasn't even giving it his all against Ace, considering how close the fight between Aokiji and Akainu actually was (Both were heavily wounded, although Akainu was the eventual victor).

Here is a video of it being explained by Jinbe:

Jinbe straight-up states that Aokiji and Akainu were comparable in strength, and again, we all know how badly Akainu stomped this weakened Ace. Aokiji was most likely holding back when he fought Ace. Considering Aokiji going all out is about equal to Akainu, we CANNOT scale Ace to Aokiji's best. In the Marineford war, Aokiji could have very easily killed Ace if he so wished. His ice and Ace's fire cancelled each other out. Also, yet again, this feat comes entirely from his Mera Mera no Mi powers (Logia Devil Fruits do not enhance the user's physical attributes in the same way that Paramecia and Zoan types do), and thus means absolutely god damn nothing against Natsu.

ALSO of note is that Doflamingo also gave up on killing Smoker when Aokiji arrived and told him to back off. Given how Doflamingo is, I highly doubt he would do that for no reason. So it isn't too hard to say that, at the very least, Aokiji>>Doflamingo. Seen in the video below.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:03 pm
Neosonic97 wrote:
thomasj3-shura wrote:@KK

Post-time skip Aokiji with a missing leg and 2 years of probably fuck all seeing as he generally does nothing unless he has to


You do realize that during the timeskip is when Aokiji fought Akainu, right? The same Akainu who stomped the weakened Ace? Ace can scale to Pre-Skip Aokiji but not Post-Skip. Either A: Aokiji grew stronger, or B: He wasn't even giving it his all against Ace, considering how close the fight between Aokiji and Akainu actually was (Both were heavily wounded, although Akainu was the eventual victor). Don't spread misinformation. It makes you look stupid.

Here is a video of it being explained by Jinbe:
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Jinbe straight-up states that Aokiji and Akainu were comparable in strength, and again, we all know how badly Akainu stomped this weakened Ace. Aokiji was most likely holding back when he fought Ace. Considering Aokiji going all out is about equal to Akainu, we CANNOT scale Ace to Aokiji's best. In the Marineford war, Aokiji could have very easily killed Ace if he so wished. His ice and Ace's fire cancelled each other out. Also, yet again, this feat comes entirely from his Mera Mera no Mi powers (Logia Devil Fruits do not enhance the user's physical attributes in the same way that Paramecia and Zoan types do), and thus means absolutely god damn nothing against Natsu.

ALSO of note is that Doflamingo also gave up on killing Smoker when Aokiji arrived and told him to back off. Given how Doflamingo is, I highly doubt he would do that for no reason. So it isn't too hard to say that, at the very least, Aokiji>>Doflamingo. Seen in the video below.

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The fight with akainu happens literally right after his fight with aokiji, during his fight with akainu, he outright manages to clash with him despite being extremely weakened from his fights during the battle:
https://youtu.be/6uOLPqTqmWc?t=52
the only reason Akainu still managed to kill Ace was because his Devil fruit was naturally superior to Ace, an advantage that Aokiji does not have and that Akainu does not have over Aokiji. Hence why said fights ended the way they did. And note on said fight, Akainu won, he's stronger than Aokiji.
Again, Aokiji being Stronger makes no fucking sense he'd be weaker if anything, Aokiji holding back is bold face retardation, he has no reason to hold back, meanwhile Ace himself is massively weaker during said fight and still matches him perfectly.
Also, Blackbeard can match Ace's fire powers with his own, yet when Ace gets his powers taken away he can still tank hits, he's a natural physical powerhouse.
Also, I literallly stated that Aokiji was blatantly superior to Doflamingo, that was the entire point of my post, do you even read?
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:36 pm
thomasj3-shura wrote:The fight with akainu happens literally right after his fight with aokiji, during his fight with akainu, he outright manages to clash with him despite being extremely weakened from his fights during the battle:
https://youtu.be/6uOLPqTqmWc?t=52
the only reason Akainu still managed to kill Ace was because his Devil fruit was naturally superior to Ace, an advantage that Aokiji does not have and that Akainu does not have over Aokiji. Hence why said fights ended the way they did. And note on said fight, Akainu won, he's stronger than Aokiji.
Again, Aokiji being Stronger makes no fucking sense he'd be weaker if anything, Aokiji holding back is bold face retardation, he has no reason to hold back, meanwhile Ace himself is massively weaker during said fight and still matches him perfectly.
Also, Blackbeard can match Ace's fire powers with his own, yet when Ace gets his powers taken away he can still tank hits, he's a natural physical powerhouse.
Also, I literallly stated that Aokiji was blatantly superior to Doflamingo, that was the entire point of my post, do you even read?


Ace managed to clash for all of one second before being sent flying, with no sign that Akainu was exerting himself. That wasn't a proper clash. That was even worse fodderization than what was claimed Garp did to Chinjao. (The difference is that, unlike Akainu against Ace, Garp actually shows signs of exertion when fighting Chinjao). Jinbe states in the video I posted that both Akainu and Aokiji were heavily wounded in their fight and, despite the fact that Aokiji lost, they were comparable in strength. Yes, Aokiji is weaker, but he is still, at the very least, comparable to Akainu in strength. Ace wasn't just outclassed by Akainu in that situation- he was straight-up fodder to him.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:46 pm
Neosonic97 wrote:
thomasj3-shura wrote:The fight with akainu happens literally right after his fight with aokiji, during his fight with akainu, he outright manages to clash with him despite being extremely weakened from his fights during the battle:
https://youtu.be/6uOLPqTqmWc?t=52
the only reason Akainu still managed to kill Ace was because his Devil fruit was naturally superior to Ace, an advantage that Aokiji does not have and that Akainu does not have over Aokiji. Hence why said fights ended the way they did. And note on said fight, Akainu won, he's stronger than Aokiji.
Again, Aokiji being Stronger makes no fucking sense he'd be weaker if anything, Aokiji holding back is bold face retardation, he has no reason to hold back, meanwhile Ace himself is massively weaker during said fight and still matches him perfectly.
Also, Blackbeard can match Ace's fire powers with his own, yet when Ace gets his powers taken away he can still tank hits, he's a natural physical powerhouse.
Also, I literallly stated that Aokiji was blatantly superior to Doflamingo, that was the entire point of my post, do you even read?


Ace managed to clash for all of one second before being sent flying, with no sign that Akainu was exerting himself. That wasn't a proper clash. That was even worse fodderization than what was claimed Garp did to Chinjao. Jinbe states in the video I posted that both Akainu and Aokiji were heavily wounded in their fight and, despite the fact that Aokiji lost, they were comparable in strength. Yes, Aokiji is weaker, but he is still, at the very least, comparable to Akainu in strength. Ace wasn't just outclassed by Akainu in that situation- he was straight-up fodder to him.

So, you're telling me that someone silghtly stronger than aokiji with a a Devil fruit advantage fighting an opponent already weakened from both a prison sentence and the battle with Aokiji himself, still needed a second punch in Ace's unguarded back to kill Ace and this means that Ace isn't comparable to Aokiji because he did better against Akainu while in pefect condition and without the downside of having a weaker Devil Fruit.
And someonehow this all means that Aokiji was holding back agaisnt Ace despite actively trying to kill him, because?
Also, Garp matched Chinjao's headbutt attack and dented his head in with a single punch, knocking him out. A similar clash occurred between Ace and Akainu and Ace was fine. Your comparison is blatantly bullshit.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:02 pm
thomasj3-shura wrote:So, you're telling me that someone slightly stronger than Aokiji with a a Devil fruit advantage fighting an opponent already weakened from both a prison sentence and the battle with Aokiji himself, still needed a second punch in Ace's unguarded back to kill Ace and this means that Ace isn't comparable to Aokiji because he did better against Akainu while in pefect condition and without the downside of having a weaker Devil Fruit.
And someonehow this all means that Aokiji was holding back against Ace despite actively trying to kill him, because?
Also, Garp matched Chinjao's headbutt attack and dented his head in with a single punch. A similar clash occurred between Ace and Akainu and Ace was fine. Your comparison is blatantly bullshit.


All we even see of THAT 'fight' is Ace cancelling ONE attack, and a basic one at that (Pheasant Beak, to be specific, rather than something like Ice Age). I said that was one of two possibilities, the other being that Aokiji became stronger. Calling that scene a battle is overselling it. Literally Aokiji only attacked ONCE, then it cut to the fight with Akainu. ACTIVELY trying to kill him? More like attacking once, having his attack cancelled by Ace's defensive technique, then stopping. This is consistent in both the anime and the manga. Aokiji also spent more of that fight targetting Whitebeard, rather than Ace, which could be ANOTHER reason why Aokiji was not at his best: He'd been fighting Whitebeard earlier, and had been wounded by the attacks of both him and Diamond Jozu. In fact, after taking a hit from Diamond Jozu, Aokiji is seen bleeding. So it's clear that it did a number on him.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:21 pm
Neosonic97 wrote:
thomasj3-shura wrote:So, you're telling me that someone slightly stronger than Aokiji with a a Devil fruit advantage fighting an opponent already weakened from both a prison sentence and the battle with Aokiji himself, still needed a second punch in Ace's unguarded back to kill Ace and this means that Ace isn't comparable to Aokiji because he did better against Akainu while in pefect condition and without the downside of having a weaker Devil Fruit.
And someonehow this all means that Aokiji was holding back against Ace despite actively trying to kill him, because?
Also, Garp matched Chinjao's headbutt attack and dented his head in with a single punch. A similar clash occurred between Ace and Akainu and Ace was fine. Your comparison is blatantly bullshit.


All we even see of THAT 'fight' is Ace cancelling ONE attack, and a basic one at that (Pheasant Beak, to be specific, rather than something like Ice Age). I said that was one of two possibilities, the other being that Aokiji became stronger. Calling that scene a battle is overselling it. Literally Aokiji only attacked ONCE, then it cut to the fight with Akainu. ACTIVELY trying to kill him? More like attacking once, having his attack cancelled by Ace's defensive technique, then stopping. This is consistent in both the anime and the manga. Aokiji also spent more of that fight targetting Whitebeard, rather than Ace, which could be ANOTHER reason why Aokiji was not at his best: He'd been fighting Whitebeard earlier, and had been wounded by the attacks of both him and Diamond Jozu. In fact, after taking a hit from Diamond Jozu, Aokiji is seen bleeding. So it's clear that it did a number on him.

>Pheasant Beak
>Basic attack
>Still bolding random words
>This character that is comparable to Ace in rank and overall standing also managed to harm and fight Aokiji so Ace definitely doesn't scale
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:25 pm
Neosonic97 wrote:
thomasj3-shura wrote:The fight with akainu happens literally right after his fight with aokiji, during his fight with akainu, he outright manages to clash with him despite being extremely weakened from his fights during the battle:
https://youtu.be/6uOLPqTqmWc?t=52
the only reason Akainu still managed to kill Ace was because his Devil fruit was naturally superior to Ace, an advantage that Aokiji does not have and that Akainu does not have over Aokiji. Hence why said fights ended the way they did. And note on said fight, Akainu won, he's stronger than Aokiji.
Again, Aokiji being Stronger makes no fucking sense he'd be weaker if anything, Aokiji holding back is bold face retardation, he has no reason to hold back, meanwhile Ace himself is massively weaker during said fight and still matches him perfectly.
Also, Blackbeard can match Ace's fire powers with his own, yet when Ace gets his powers taken away he can still tank hits, he's a natural physical powerhouse.
Also, I literallly stated that Aokiji was blatantly superior to Doflamingo, that was the entire point of my post, do you even read?


Ace managed to clash for all of one second before being sent flying, with no sign that Akainu was exerting himself. That wasn't a proper clash. That was even worse fodderization than what was claimed Garp did to Chinjao. (The difference is that, unlike Akainu against Ace, Garp actually shows signs of exertion when fighting Chinjao). Jinbe states in the video I posted that both Akainu and Aokiji were heavily wounded in their fight and, despite the fact that Aokiji lost, they were comparable in strength. Yes, Aokiji is weaker, but he is still, at the very least, comparable to Akainu in strength. Ace wasn't just outclassed by Akainu in that situation- he was straight-up fodder to him.


Why not just bold the whole paragraph?
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:27 pm
He definitely doesn't scale in terms of physicality to Diamond Jozu, considering the vastly different natures of their powers (And the fact that Diamond Jozu is easily one of the physically strongest members of the Whitebeard Pirates). Unless you're willing to tell me that Ace's durability and strength are far above Dracule Mihawk? Because Jozu straight-up no-sold Mihawk's attacks (It forcing him back is an anime-only thing and contradicts the original manga, and there was still no visible damage to him). MAYBE he could scale to Jozu's DC using his stronger Mera Mera no Mi attacks like the Daienkai: Entei, but NOT to his durability or physical striking power.

Simply scaling them in every way because they're the same rank is dumb. This means they're as competent as one another, but the ways in which they are competent are not the same. Marco seems to have better speed showings than the other commanders of the Whitebeard Pirates shown onscreen (He essentially blitzed Aokiji, but his kick to Aokiji's back didn't do as much damage as Jozu's punch did, and it was more just to keep Aokiji away from Luffy). Jozu has better Strength and Durability. Ace has his whole range advantage and Logia powers which lets him have higher DC overall, using his powers.

metabro wrote:Why not just bold the whole paragraph?


To put emphasis on the most important parts. Admittedly I made a mistake with the formatting and got the brackets part in the bold by accident.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:18 am
Akainu and Aokiji being "comparable" doesn't make sense to me.
Similar to his matchup with Ace, Akainu's lava should have a MASSIVE inherent advantage against Aokiji's ice - hell, even more so.
So if the two of them were "comparable" in strength, then Akainu should have stomped. For the two to have an even match with a very close ending, Aokiji must have been significantly more powerful than Akainu.
They are presenting this as straight up Pokemon logic. Akainu is Rock/Fire, meaning he was super effective!!! against Ace's mono fire typing (plus he had mold breaker as his ability to negate Ace's logia intangibility). Aokiji is mono Ice, meaning he should have lost to Akainu even worse, and for the two to be even he must have been a few levels higher.
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