Death Battle Discussion: Scrooge McDuck vs Shovel Knight

It's time for POSTING OPINIONS!

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:18 pm
So what's Xents excuse for ftl characters at all?Or other obviously supersonic characters that don't come from verses with ki equivalents to handwave scientific accuracies away?
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:24 pm
12cheeper wrote:So what's Xents excuse for ftl characters at all?Or other obviously supersonic characters that don't come from verses with ki equivalents to handwave scientific accuracies away?


Sometimes you just have to let it go that physics in fictional universes just don't work. It's an inherent problem in Versus battling. So you have to go by other evidence.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:36 pm
Winnosh wrote:
12cheeper wrote:So what's Xents excuse for ftl characters at all?Or other obviously supersonic characters that don't come from verses with ki equivalents to handwave scientific accuracies away?


Sometimes you just have to let it go that physics in fictional universes just don't work. It's an inherent problem in Versus battling. So you have to go by other evidence.

I know.I'm just pointing out what's wrong with Xent insisting that fiction has to be completely 1:1 with real life physics for feats to count when most feats conveniently leave out things like conservation of energy.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:43 pm
Long post is spoilered because I'm not obnoxious

Spoiler
Xenterex wrote:Frankly, that's just another case of something popping up that shows I was 'right' if people bothered to actually read what I wrote, instead of the fantasy they made up —which yes, I phrased cuz there's also examples from my 'history' here.


Gee Xen, with that tone I wonder why nobody can fucking stand it when you post. I fucking wonder

I have a history of people misrepresenting my position, and of me then trying to clear up the error OR dissuading people from acting like they bothered to do something worthwhile.


Oh the tough life you lead you poor soul

No Xen, what you have a "history" of is posting with a snarky, condescending tone detailing how you are the sole person to see something clearly when everyone else can't, then proceeding to type dozens and dozens of paragraphs and being an eyesore to a thread's page while scrutinizing over the most insignificant details that are ignored in normal VS debating because, surprise, fiction doesn't 100% adhere to real life physics. Then when people call you out on it, you double down on the bullshit. Every time. Without fail

oh, and I guess I have a history of not posting memes. Not sorry about that.


You only have yourself to blame

My 'evidence' is often pointing at stuff people are already looking at, but pointing out a different interpretation. The common response is that either the stuff doesn't matter cuz "[x] should still win anyway" or its left to be "xen's logic that would nerf a million series" as if that were a poignant form of rational — IF the method of clac is flawed, then its not my logic that would nerf it, its anyone who has the balls to call out people on bloating/downplay for doing the right thing.

Sure, some concessions are made cuz its fiction verse, but that doesn't mean the reverse also justifies the extent of what people try to claim: how people respond to my posts is just a clear indicator of how bi-polar some of these interpretations can be.


Your "evidence" is ignoring the context of a feat, attacking the creator's lack of understanding in the most insignificant of details, and using it all to establish a new, personal interpretation of the feat to make it less impressive. Then you drone on about it at length using filler and flowery dialogue in an attempt to impress those who wouldn't care to read all your essays or who wouldn't understand what you're talking about in the first place. Because big posts with stuff you don't get must always be correct, right forums?

Like I learned in middle school: "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit"

"zomg, xen would make it so dbz doesn't break the sound barrier cuz no sonic booms all the time"
... or their manipulate of ki offsets the displacement of air that would then make a sonic boom — there's stuff that doesn't make the booms, and there's science on how to reduce, if not even stop those things; congrats on showing your ignorance and arrogance to pretend you know what the hell I'm talking about.


So you have proof that ki works in this way? Or is this just fanfiction? Fan theories aren't enough to justify your points

No Xen, DBZ characters don't produce sonic booms because Toriyama couldn't give a semblence of a fuck about accurately portraying the laws of physics. The old fart can't even be trusted with being consistent in his storytelling, let try to portray the minute details of hypersonic flight. Yet that's what we know DBZ characters fly at (and exceed). There doesn't NEED to be a hidden explanation as to why fiction acts this way. This is something you fail to grasp time and time again

Funny thing, as much as people don't like me, or my method, they frequently miss the parts where I was right despite all their ranting and crap against WHY I spelled out the proof, logic, and implications of what was incorrect.


"Golly, if these people would just stop calling me out on my bullshit, then they'll see I was right all along!"

Get over yourself please

Here's the thing about the meteor feat:

IF the meteor survives the impact, than it withstands the force exerted (equal opposite) so having the meteor embed has a different implication than the meteor shattering or distorting on impact. So numbers aside, interpretation matters cuz that can be used for a feat for DK breaking the meteors with his shovel, and for the Tower of fate taking hits from said meteors (i don't recall if either were pointed out, but yea, Tower base is taking those meteors)


Look out YCG. Xen is on to you. He's gonna crack the code of the hidden, overly subtle context behind these characters' abilities. No, he wouldn't be harping on these trivial matters to suit his own interpretations at all! We know full well you can accurately portray the intricacies of meteor crashes with 8-bit sprites, so don't you tell me a meteor can't just be a meteor, jabroni!

The issue with Beele's little tantrum is that he's doing the very thing I have an issue with doing: misrepresenting my point just for the sake of saying i'm wrong and honestly not thinking this stuff through.


Image

Meteors are generally comprised of rock and iron: both materials that can distend when they're orange-hot (not necessarily in meteors, just as a material property) Meteors typically don't pancake cuz they're not hitting ground that can withstand the impact for equal/opposite to distend the meteor: large portions of ground displace the energy of the impact, and some portions of the porous meteor are similarly broken off and shatter; so yea, lots of forces that displace a lot of the impact so most of that doesn't then distort the meteor into "pancaking".

Another important factor is the visuals of the 'embedded' meteors indicate they are still hot, and not cooled, which is another visual key for how I interpret the impact that others may have overlooked.


Or they "pancake" because YCG made an awkward looking sprite with no deep insidious motive behind it :|

This is the definition of making a mountain out of an anthill

I shouldn't need to spell that out, and that's length here for people to not like, so /clap


Wow. Gottem?

Sure, I don't think sprite resources has someone pull all the meteor sprites, but a frame/frame or slow-play of the meteors impact shows the sprites do distend when they don't shatter — SO either the visuals help support the interpretation or they really don't, either of which influence the consistency of the 'logic' for how people look at other feats from the same source, such as "lightning"


The real moral in this is that every video game company needs to hire physics majors so they can portray their feats with scientific accuracy for the anal people like you

Here's the thing about the "lightning feats", based on the meteor impact, the game seems to be putting an eye of detail into the distinctions of what actually going on with a feat. I said that about the lighting before, but people are just going to be all "oh its xen, so we can just say he's wrong, and pretend we're right"


Let's go easy on that ego stroking there, k?

Issue with that is I take the Spectre fight with phantom striker to prove my point: this character is clearly showcasing forms of electricity that is not only different that the stuff used by Baz (that was referenced for a feat calc) but the new visuals ARE in line with the qualities I said were being neglected in the other displays.


Baz and Phantom Striker having different applications of electricity manipulation makes zero difference. Shovel Knight beat them both, and in Baz's case the lightning fulfulls the requirements commonly required to apply lightning speeds to it. This arguing over minutiae is getting redundant

Which goes back to the meteor interpretation: either the visuals compliment the interpretation, or people are ignoring that stuff. It's not "my logic" that encourages consistency in something that is clearly showing that it has consistency people can use.


The boy finally gets it! People DO ignore trivial visuals in favor of context when it comes to VS debating!

The new phantom striker fight clearly shows its exhibiting a difference between lightning and any other electrical (dis)charge. I don't care if people didn't believe me before, or if they don't care to bother with me now cuz this is just more par for the course crap I've gotten before.

This reaffirms to me the problem of the calc used for the feat before: it used 'not-lightning' to make a lightning feat, and now the game is showing there IS a difference.

Sure, people can ignore that difference and fall back into the "i'm rubber, you're glue" and pretend that wins discussions or correctly justifies feats, but it really doesn't.


>Let's go easy on that ego stroking there, k?
>This arguing over minutiae is getting redundant

I don't pontificate for the sake of pontificating cuz I think (or pretend) I magically need to act like I'm smart, nor is the implication that I think I am smart. However, I do notice a consistent flaw from time to time, and obviously just saying "hey you're wrong" doesn't work.


Certainly not the tone you're giving out, hombre. Your first post on this topic started with you calling it "sad" how nobody would argue with Tommy's calcs. Like you're the shining beacon of rationality and we're just the sheep prancing in Tommy's field. Not buying it
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:14 pm
>addressing xent's posts in full point by point

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:30 pm
metabro wrote:Long post is spoilered because I'm not obnoxious

Spoiler
Xenterex wrote:Frankly, that's just another case of something popping up that shows I was 'right' if people bothered to actually read what I wrote, instead of the fantasy they made up —which yes, I phrased cuz there's also examples from my 'history' here.


Gee Xen, with that tone I wonder why nobody can fucking stand it when you post. I fucking wonder

I have a history of people misrepresenting my position, and of me then trying to clear up the error OR dissuading people from acting like they bothered to do something worthwhile.


Oh the tough life you lead you poor soul

No Xen, what you have a "history" of is posting with a snarky, condescending tone detailing how you are the sole person to see something clearly when everyone else can't, then proceeding to type dozens and dozens of paragraphs and being an eyesore to a thread's page while scrutinizing over the most insignificant details that are ignored in normal VS debating because, surprise, fiction doesn't 100% adhere to real life physics. Then when people call you out on it, you double down on the bullshit. Every time. Without fail

oh, and I guess I have a history of not posting memes. Not sorry about that.


You only have yourself to blame

My 'evidence' is often pointing at stuff people are already looking at, but pointing out a different interpretation. The common response is that either the stuff doesn't matter cuz "[x] should still win anyway" or its left to be "xen's logic that would nerf a million series" as if that were a poignant form of rational — IF the method of clac is flawed, then its not my logic that would nerf it, its anyone who has the balls to call out people on bloating/downplay for doing the right thing.

Sure, some concessions are made cuz its fiction verse, but that doesn't mean the reverse also justifies the extent of what people try to claim: how people respond to my posts is just a clear indicator of how bi-polar some of these interpretations can be.


Your "evidence" is ignoring the context of a feat, attacking the creator's lack of understanding in the most insignificant of details, and using it all to establish a new, personal interpretation of the feat to make it less impressive. Then you drone on about it at length using filler and flowery dialogue in an attempt to impress those who wouldn't care to read all your essays or who wouldn't understand what you're talking about in the first place. Because big posts with stuff you don't get must always be correct, right forums?

Like I learned in middle school: "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit"

"zomg, xen would make it so dbz doesn't break the sound barrier cuz no sonic booms all the time"
... or their manipulate of ki offsets the displacement of air that would then make a sonic boom — there's stuff that doesn't make the booms, and there's science on how to reduce, if not even stop those things; congrats on showing your ignorance and arrogance to pretend you know what the hell I'm talking about.


So you have proof that ki works in this way? Or is this just fanfiction? Fan theories aren't enough to justify your points

No Xen, DBZ characters don't produce sonic booms because Toriyama couldn't give a semblence of a fuck about accurately portraying the laws of physics. The old fart can't even be trusted with being consistent in his storytelling, let try to portray the minute details of hypersonic flight. Yet that's what we know DBZ characters fly at (and exceed). There doesn't NEED to be a hidden explanation as to why fiction acts this way. This is something you fail to grasp time and time again

Funny thing, as much as people don't like me, or my method, they frequently miss the parts where I was right despite all their ranting and crap against WHY I spelled out the proof, logic, and implications of what was incorrect.


"Golly, if these people would just stop calling me out on my bullshit, then they'll see I was right all along!"

Get over yourself please

Here's the thing about the meteor feat:

IF the meteor survives the impact, than it withstands the force exerted (equal opposite) so having the meteor embed has a different implication than the meteor shattering or distorting on impact. So numbers aside, interpretation matters cuz that can be used for a feat for DK breaking the meteors with his shovel, and for the Tower of fate taking hits from said meteors (i don't recall if either were pointed out, but yea, Tower base is taking those meteors)


Look out YCG. Xen is on to you. He's gonna crack the code of the hidden, overly subtle context behind these characters' abilities. No, he wouldn't be harping on these trivial matters to suit his own interpretations at all! We know full well you can accurately portray the intricacies of meteor crashes with 8-bit sprites, so don't you tell me a meteor can't just be a meteor, jabroni!

The issue with Beele's little tantrum is that he's doing the very thing I have an issue with doing: misrepresenting my point just for the sake of saying i'm wrong and honestly not thinking this stuff through.


Image

Meteors are generally comprised of rock and iron: both materials that can distend when they're orange-hot (not necessarily in meteors, just as a material property) Meteors typically don't pancake cuz they're not hitting ground that can withstand the impact for equal/opposite to distend the meteor: large portions of ground displace the energy of the impact, and some portions of the porous meteor are similarly broken off and shatter; so yea, lots of forces that displace a lot of the impact so most of that doesn't then distort the meteor into "pancaking".

Another important factor is the visuals of the 'embedded' meteors indicate they are still hot, and not cooled, which is another visual key for how I interpret the impact that others may have overlooked.


Or they "pancake" because YCG made an awkward looking sprite with no deep insidious motive behind it :|

This is the definition of making a mountain out of an anthill

I shouldn't need to spell that out, and that's length here for people to not like, so /clap


Wow. Gottem?

Sure, I don't think sprite resources has someone pull all the meteor sprites, but a frame/frame or slow-play of the meteors impact shows the sprites do distend when they don't shatter — SO either the visuals help support the interpretation or they really don't, either of which influence the consistency of the 'logic' for how people look at other feats from the same source, such as "lightning"


The real moral in this is that every video game company needs to hire physics majors so they can portray their feats with scientific accuracy for the anal people like you

Here's the thing about the "lightning feats", based on the meteor impact, the game seems to be putting an eye of detail into the distinctions of what actually going on with a feat. I said that about the lighting before, but people are just going to be all "oh its xen, so we can just say he's wrong, and pretend we're right"


Let's go easy on that ego stroking there, k?

Issue with that is I take the Spectre fight with phantom striker to prove my point: this character is clearly showcasing forms of electricity that is not only different that the stuff used by Baz (that was referenced for a feat calc) but the new visuals ARE in line with the qualities I said were being neglected in the other displays.


Baz and Phantom Striker having different applications of electricity manipulation makes zero difference. Shovel Knight beat them both, and in Baz's case the lightning fulfulls the requirements commonly required to apply lightning speeds to it. This arguing over minutiae is getting redundant

Which goes back to the meteor interpretation: either the visuals compliment the interpretation, or people are ignoring that stuff. It's not "my logic" that encourages consistency in something that is clearly showing that it has consistency people can use.


The boy finally gets it! People DO ignore trivial visuals in favor of context when it comes to VS debating!

The new phantom striker fight clearly shows its exhibiting a difference between lightning and any other electrical (dis)charge. I don't care if people didn't believe me before, or if they don't care to bother with me now cuz this is just more par for the course crap I've gotten before.

This reaffirms to me the problem of the calc used for the feat before: it used 'not-lightning' to make a lightning feat, and now the game is showing there IS a difference.

Sure, people can ignore that difference and fall back into the "i'm rubber, you're glue" and pretend that wins discussions or correctly justifies feats, but it really doesn't.


>Let's go easy on that ego stroking there, k?
>This arguing over minutiae is getting redundant

I don't pontificate for the sake of pontificating cuz I think (or pretend) I magically need to act like I'm smart, nor is the implication that I think I am smart. However, I do notice a consistent flaw from time to time, and obviously just saying "hey you're wrong" doesn't work.


Certainly not the tone you're giving out, hombre. Your first post on this topic started with you calling it "sad" how nobody would argue with Tommy's calcs. Like you're the shining beacon of rationality and we're just the sheep prancing in Tommy's field. Not buying it


>Actual arguments

We need more of this, thanks based Big Mac man
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:51 am
metabro wrote:Long post is spoilered because I'm not obnoxious

Spoiler
Xenterex wrote:Frankly, that's just another case of something popping up that shows I was 'right' if people bothered to actually read what I wrote, instead of the fantasy they made up —which yes, I phrased cuz there's also examples from my 'history' here.


Gee Xen, with that tone I wonder why nobody can fucking stand it when you post. I fucking wonder

I have a history of people misrepresenting my position, and of me then trying to clear up the error OR dissuading people from acting like they bothered to do something worthwhile.


Oh the tough life you lead you poor soul

No Xen, what you have a "history" of is posting with a snarky, condescending tone detailing how you are the sole person to see something clearly when everyone else can't, then proceeding to type dozens and dozens of paragraphs and being an eyesore to a thread's page while scrutinizing over the most insignificant details that are ignored in normal VS debating because, surprise, fiction doesn't 100% adhere to real life physics. Then when people call you out on it, you double down on the bullshit. Every time. Without fail

oh, and I guess I have a history of not posting memes. Not sorry about that.


You only have yourself to blame

My 'evidence' is often pointing at stuff people are already looking at, but pointing out a different interpretation. The common response is that either the stuff doesn't matter cuz "[x] should still win anyway" or its left to be "xen's logic that would nerf a million series" as if that were a poignant form of rational — IF the method of clac is flawed, then its not my logic that would nerf it, its anyone who has the balls to call out people on bloating/downplay for doing the right thing.

Sure, some concessions are made cuz its fiction verse, but that doesn't mean the reverse also justifies the extent of what people try to claim: how people respond to my posts is just a clear indicator of how bi-polar some of these interpretations can be.


Your "evidence" is ignoring the context of a feat, attacking the creator's lack of understanding in the most insignificant of details, and using it all to establish a new, personal interpretation of the feat to make it less impressive. Then you drone on about it at length using filler and flowery dialogue in an attempt to impress those who wouldn't care to read all your essays or who wouldn't understand what you're talking about in the first place. Because big posts with stuff you don't get must always be correct, right forums?

Like I learned in middle school: "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit"

"zomg, xen would make it so dbz doesn't break the sound barrier cuz no sonic booms all the time"
... or their manipulate of ki offsets the displacement of air that would then make a sonic boom — there's stuff that doesn't make the booms, and there's science on how to reduce, if not even stop those things; congrats on showing your ignorance and arrogance to pretend you know what the hell I'm talking about.


So you have proof that ki works in this way? Or is this just fanfiction? Fan theories aren't enough to justify your points

No Xen, DBZ characters don't produce sonic booms because Toriyama couldn't give a semblence of a fuck about accurately portraying the laws of physics. The old fart can't even be trusted with being consistent in his storytelling, let try to portray the minute details of hypersonic flight. Yet that's what we know DBZ characters fly at (and exceed). There doesn't NEED to be a hidden explanation as to why fiction acts this way. This is something you fail to grasp time and time again

Funny thing, as much as people don't like me, or my method, they frequently miss the parts where I was right despite all their ranting and crap against WHY I spelled out the proof, logic, and implications of what was incorrect.


"Golly, if these people would just stop calling me out on my bullshit, then they'll see I was right all along!"

Get over yourself please

Here's the thing about the meteor feat:

IF the meteor survives the impact, than it withstands the force exerted (equal opposite) so having the meteor embed has a different implication than the meteor shattering or distorting on impact. So numbers aside, interpretation matters cuz that can be used for a feat for DK breaking the meteors with his shovel, and for the Tower of fate taking hits from said meteors (i don't recall if either were pointed out, but yea, Tower base is taking those meteors)


Look out YCG. Xen is on to you. He's gonna crack the code of the hidden, overly subtle context behind these characters' abilities. No, he wouldn't be harping on these trivial matters to suit his own interpretations at all! We know full well you can accurately portray the intricacies of meteor crashes with 8-bit sprites, so don't you tell me a meteor can't just be a meteor, jabroni!

The issue with Beele's little tantrum is that he's doing the very thing I have an issue with doing: misrepresenting my point just for the sake of saying i'm wrong and honestly not thinking this stuff through.


Image

Meteors are generally comprised of rock and iron: both materials that can distend when they're orange-hot (not necessarily in meteors, just as a material property) Meteors typically don't pancake cuz they're not hitting ground that can withstand the impact for equal/opposite to distend the meteor: large portions of ground displace the energy of the impact, and some portions of the porous meteor are similarly broken off and shatter; so yea, lots of forces that displace a lot of the impact so most of that doesn't then distort the meteor into "pancaking".

Another important factor is the visuals of the 'embedded' meteors indicate they are still hot, and not cooled, which is another visual key for how I interpret the impact that others may have overlooked.


Or they "pancake" because YCG made an awkward looking sprite with no deep insidious motive behind it :|

This is the definition of making a mountain out of an anthill

I shouldn't need to spell that out, and that's length here for people to not like, so /clap


Wow. Gottem?

Sure, I don't think sprite resources has someone pull all the meteor sprites, but a frame/frame or slow-play of the meteors impact shows the sprites do distend when they don't shatter — SO either the visuals help support the interpretation or they really don't, either of which influence the consistency of the 'logic' for how people look at other feats from the same source, such as "lightning"


The real moral in this is that every video game company needs to hire physics majors so they can portray their feats with scientific accuracy for the anal people like you

Here's the thing about the "lightning feats", based on the meteor impact, the game seems to be putting an eye of detail into the distinctions of what actually going on with a feat. I said that about the lighting before, but people are just going to be all "oh its xen, so we can just say he's wrong, and pretend we're right"


Let's go easy on that ego stroking there, k?

Issue with that is I take the Spectre fight with phantom striker to prove my point: this character is clearly showcasing forms of electricity that is not only different that the stuff used by Baz (that was referenced for a feat calc) but the new visuals ARE in line with the qualities I said were being neglected in the other displays.


Baz and Phantom Striker having different applications of electricity manipulation makes zero difference. Shovel Knight beat them both, and in Baz's case the lightning fulfulls the requirements commonly required to apply lightning speeds to it. This arguing over minutiae is getting redundant

Which goes back to the meteor interpretation: either the visuals compliment the interpretation, or people are ignoring that stuff. It's not "my logic" that encourages consistency in something that is clearly showing that it has consistency people can use.


The boy finally gets it! People DO ignore trivial visuals in favor of context when it comes to VS debating!

The new phantom striker fight clearly shows its exhibiting a difference between lightning and any other electrical (dis)charge. I don't care if people didn't believe me before, or if they don't care to bother with me now cuz this is just more par for the course crap I've gotten before.

This reaffirms to me the problem of the calc used for the feat before: it used 'not-lightning' to make a lightning feat, and now the game is showing there IS a difference.

Sure, people can ignore that difference and fall back into the "i'm rubber, you're glue" and pretend that wins discussions or correctly justifies feats, but it really doesn't.


>Let's go easy on that ego stroking there, k?
>This arguing over minutiae is getting redundant

I don't pontificate for the sake of pontificating cuz I think (or pretend) I magically need to act like I'm smart, nor is the implication that I think I am smart. However, I do notice a consistent flaw from time to time, and obviously just saying "hey you're wrong" doesn't work.


Certainly not the tone you're giving out, hombre. Your first post on this topic started with you calling it "sad" how nobody would argue with Tommy's calcs. Like you're the shining beacon of rationality and we're just the sheep prancing in Tommy's field. Not buying it

Spoiler
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You are the MVP of this thread, now. Good job, my burger.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:04 am
Hmmmn. Well guys apparently an interview with Don Rosa reveals that the whole Scrooge ripping apart the steamboat is supposed to be viewed as more of an exxageration of the actual events. One of those stories of something that really did happen, but wasn't nearly as impressive, however as more people told the story it grew through the years. Like a tall tale.

Looking for the actual quote now, though would this invalidate the feat, I know how people here feel about Authorial intent.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:21 am
God fucking damn it.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:27 am
Gg
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