Kirby kid wrote:
Natsu being able to hold/touch fire does matter. It matters a lot actually. It makes one of Ace's most relied on abilities useless.
When Gajeel pulls Rogue out his hand is physical. We see this both in the manga scan you provided and in the anime.https://youtu.be/YX6-jaF5tos
@9:50 we see them clashing in shadow form and @10:15 we see Gajeel use his physical hand to pull Rogue out of the shadows
The manga shows a shadowy hand grabbing Rogue while he's infused in the shadows. Looks like a contradiction from the anime, so the manga takes precedence. Not that it matters because...
The fact that Gajeel and Rogue are fighting while in Shadow form shows that they can hurt each other because of their ability to manipulate shadows.
Both dragon slayers have shown to be able to touch/interact with a living form of the element they can manipulate. That's the reasoning behind the Gajeel and Natsu comparison, because it works.
...they share the same special powers, which allows them to nullify each other's intangibility. Natsu can manipulate fire, but you can't say that he can harm a fire elemental just because he shares that same control over fire as them without indisputable proof. The only time Natsu met such a character he couldn't do anything but annoy him until the power of friendship won him over. You can't compare Gajeel to Natsu
I think you're kind of exaggerating the way Atlas was feeling during that fight. He wasn't just "annoyed" the entire fight, Natsu was eating him and he was genuinely surprised and angered by it, and the longer Natsu ate him, his anger/surprise soon turned into fear because he compared Natsu eating his flames to that of the fire dragon Igneel himself.
Frankly, you're completely misrepresenting the scene to the point where it's almost dishonest. Watch it again
>Natsu lands on Atlas Flame
>Natsu starts eating Atlas Flame
>Atlas Flame is unamused and calls it nonsense
>Atlas Flame gets annoyed and tries to throw Natsu off and tells him to not try and anger him
>Atlas Flame gets a feeling from Natsu that reminds him of Igneel, his good friend
>They stop fighting and become friends
Nothing about the scene says Atlas Flame felt anything but annoyance and frustration while trying to get Natsu off his back. He was never harmed nor did he ever felt fear. He only stopped fighting Natsu when he realized Natsu's connection to his king and close friend
Natsu is touching Ace in this fight, no ifs ands or buts about it. He's not "going through Ace" when he can physically touch fire.
He will be touching Ace's fire, not his real body. I do not know how many times I have to repeat this. At best the Atlas Flame "fight" just showed Natsu can touch fire as though it's solid, which is consistent to what we've seen him do in the rest of the series. But that's not Ace's real body he would be grabbing, just fire that Ace can almost limitlessly create and that he can regenerate from
Blackbeard outright calls out Ace for not being used to getting physically hit by attacks.
This is more of an indication of Ace being really really good at avoiding hits from strong New World pirates and Blackbeard being that good of a fighter with a very hax ability than anything. And " a while" could mean anything. That doesn't necessarily mean he has never been hurt by a Haki user or someone since receiving his Flame Flame Fruit
Ace is not going to stop using his fire in this fight, even in fights where it's shown not to matter, Ace still uses them.
He didn't stop using his fire abilities against Blackbeard because they DID matter in that fight. Your scan proves this
Blackbeard's Dark Dark Fruit is a Logia type, but it is also the only known Logia that does not let the user turn into its element. Blackbeard can use his powers to temporarily turn off a Devil Fruit's powers (particularly a Logia's intangibility), but Ace could still hurt him with his fire. It makes perfect sense for Ace to keep using fire attacks against a guy with these abilities
Even with his fight against Jimbei, he still used fire against him. The fight starts off with him using fire, and I'm pretty sure that fight happened the way it did to show how stubborn Ace was and why him being guided by Whitebeard changed all that.
It should be noted that a few parts of this scene are added when they didn't exist in the manga. But even then I do not know why you brought it up. It shows Ace's being able to fight a character with a counter to his intangibility (in Jinbei's case it's probably his control over water, which includes the moisture in the air) for 5 days straight. It also shows he can hold his own against a very experienced and strong martial artist
And note how in the beginning of the fight Ace tries to punch him with a fiery fist. Remember that the Flame Flame Fruit can amplify physical strikes by imbuing them with fire, which is kinda similar to how Natsu operates. So in that sense it's not like Ace was only shooting fireballs at Jinbei as it likely got physical
I can give Ace experience because he is older than Natsu, but as with all cases of experience, that goes out the drain when you fight a person with abilities you've never encountered before-
Natsu touching and eating fire being some of them.
The point on his experience is more to show how Ace has been trained since being a youngster to be efficient at melee combat. He was even trained by Garp so he can become a Marine. It shows he has more than just shooting flames
Ace may not need to turn full into fire like you said, but Natsu can still eat and touch the part of fire he becomes. Natsu isn't going to fully consume Ace, mind you, that I can concede to, but he can still eat Ace's flame body, making Ace to switch up his strategy.
Logias can make their element bodies very malleable. In the case that Natsu tries to eat parts of Ace's flame body to regenerate stamina, Ace can easily float away, bend around Natsu's grapples to avoid him, etc.
By then it'll already be too late.
You're assuming Ace can't come up with an easily solution in time? Or more realistically, knock Natsu the fuck out because he's much stronger and scales to even stronger characters?
That's if you give Ace scaling to feats that happened years after his death.
Which they don't.
It is starting to become annoying having to repeat myself on thisOnly the Worst Generation got stronger after the timeskip
. We only know that the rookies and up and comers who needed to prove themselves in the New World (like the Eleven Supernovas, Blackbeard, and lower ranked Marines like Smoker, Tashigi, and Coby) got stronger after the war. Guys like the Admirals, WB Commanders, Yonko, etc. have no indication they trained or got much stronger after the war. And they don't really need to either. They're already high on the One Piece tier list and can handle themselves just fine in the New World
And again, nearly every feat brought up that Ace scales to were done BEFORE
the timeskip, making this point moot. The only exceptions are Aokiji and Akainu permanently altering an island by fighting (which was done as a side effect from this fight, meaning it was implied to be low effort so Ace would scale anyway) and Fujitora bringing down meteors and dishing out really casual small island level feats (which are, again, very casual so Ace still gets the scaling)
Natsu without scaling and with what's been shown is superior in stats to Ace. With scaling this goes further beyond what Ace is capable of.
Not only would not including scaling be a wrong and dishonest way to analyze this fight, you would still be wrong. Natsu is heavily reliant on scaling to Fairy Tail top tiers just as much as Ace is to One Piece top tiers. And if we include only the feats they performed themselves, Natsu's Lightning Fire Dragon Roar
came out to about 1.4 megatons. The OBD Wiki
has it listed as 4.5 megatons for some reason, but even that is a lower value than Sabo's Hiken right after he first ate the Flame Flame Fruit
. Ace just by standing around Drum Island giving no effort at all
released 6 times more energy than Natsu's strongest legit calc